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D&D 5E What is your least favorite class in 5E?

What is your least favorite class in 5E?

  • Artificer

    Votes: 38 27.0%
  • Barbarian

    Votes: 13 9.2%
  • Bard

    Votes: 25 17.7%
  • Cleric

    Votes: 13 9.2%
  • Druid

    Votes: 11 7.8%
  • Fighter

    Votes: 7 5.0%
  • Monk

    Votes: 41 29.1%
  • Paladin

    Votes: 8 5.7%
  • Ranger

    Votes: 26 18.4%
  • Rogue

    Votes: 3 2.1%
  • Sorcerer

    Votes: 33 23.4%
  • Warlock

    Votes: 16 11.3%
  • Wizard

    Votes: 11 7.8%

  • Total voters
    141

DEFCON 1

Legend
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Clearly not. Magic is "superpowers" by another name.
But these are not "Superhero" stories. We're talking genre here, not mechanics and I think you know that. Just because Michael Myers behaves like an undead doesn't make Halloween a Gothic Horror story, and Call of Duty isn't a Revolutionary War epic just because they both fire guns at people.
 

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Aldarc

Legend
But these are not "Superhero" stories. We're talking genre here, not mechanics and I think you know that. Just because Michael Myers behaves like an undead doesn't make Halloween a Gothic Horror story, and Call of Duty isn't a Revolutionary War epic just because they both fire guns at people.
You don't agree that Dungeons & Dragons falls within the Fantasy genre and instead is in the Superhero genre? Interesting. :)
Unsurprisingly, I'm not making the claim you condescendingly think I am.
 


DEFCON 1

Legend
Unsurprisingly, I'm not making the claim you condescendingly think I am.
Are you not the one whose first response to me was the following...

"Sure, superpowers are supposed to be special in comic books with cool origin stories, but sometimes regular people are just born with them. And that's the narrative space in which mutants and the X-Men exist in Marvel."

That's the Superhero genre. And when I pointed out that D&D isn't that... you asked if I was sure about that.

And my answer is yes... Dungeons & Dragons is not the superhero genre.

But if that's not the claim you were trying to make... I guess you might need to just say it again a little clearer because I obviously didn't get it.
 


Aldarc

Legend
Are you not the one whose first response to me was the following...

"Sure, superpowers are supposed to be special in comic books with cool origin stories, but sometimes regular people are just born with them. And that's the narrative space in which mutants and the X-Men exist in Marvel."

That's the Superhero genre. And when I pointed out that D&D isn't that... you asked if I was sure about that.

And my answer is yes... Dungeons & Dragons is not the superhero genre.

But if that's not the claim you were trying to make... I guess you might need to just say it again a little clearer because I obviously didn't get it.
You are correct that D&D is not the superhero genre. But the point is that there are a diverse amount of ways in which people gain their powers in superhero stories. It’s not just earned or gained through freak accidents. “But this is fantasy…” Sure, it is. And can you in all honesty say that there are no stories in the fantasy genre that involve people being born with their powers? And that the Sorcerer in no way helps to simulate such characters in those fantasy stories?
 

Greg K

Hero
It would have been great if the Rogue* also had Superiority Dice and Combat Maneuvers that it could use too.

* Not to mention the Monk, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, etc.
I disagree. I want the Rogue split into two classes:

The first would be the light/nor armor warrior that falls inbetween the Battlemaster Fighter and the Rogue. including Corsairs, Duelists, Gallants, Kensei, Puglists, Musketeers, Swashbucklers, and what is typically thought of when people think martial artist. They would gain superiority dice and combat maneuvers.

The second would be the sneak attack class (assassins, charlatans, thieves)
 

Aldarc

Legend
I disagree. I want the Rogue split into two classes:

The first would be the light/nor armor warrior that falls inbetween the Battlemaster Fighter and the Rogue. including Corsairs, Duelists, Gallants, Kensei, Puglists, Musketeers, Swashbucklers, and what is typically thought of when people think martial artist. They would gain superiority dice and combat maneuvers.

The second would be the sneak attack class (assassins, charlatans, thieves)
I don’t disagree. (Es ist mir egal.) Monte Cook’s Arcana Evolved designed classes around play styles. The Warmain was designed foe a heavily armored fighter, while the Unfettered was for the light-armored fighter/rogue/swashbuckler, and the Akashic was for the people who play skill and lore monkeys.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
You are correct that D&D is not the superhero genre. But the point is that there are a diverse amount of ways in which people gain their powers in superhero stories. It’s not just earned or gained through freak accidents. “But this is fantasy…” Sure, it is. And can you in all honesty say that there are no stories in the fantasy genre that involve people being born with their powers? And that the Sorcerer in no way helps to simulate such characters in those fantasy stories?
Absolutely. But as my original post stated... my problem was not that they only got their powers by being born, it was that they got power that could be equivalent of the other classes that had to work for it and thus I felt cheapened those classes. The Sorcerer as written was a bad story in my opinion.

But like I responded to Stalker0... had the Sorcerer been a half-caster or had some "cost" for getting power that would put them at equal footing with the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid (like for instance, wild magic surges, which I feel is the only worthwhile origin in my opinion)... I might like it more. But it doesn't, so I don't.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
I'm not sure there is such a clear cut distinction.

It's a vehicle for telling stories, and I certainly believe that you could tell a story within D&D, that reflects superhero tropes.
If you can liken the two together... go nuts. More power to you.

But that doesn't change the fact that I think the Sorcerer's story in D&D kinda stinks, because I don't equate the fantasy and superhero genres. And I especially wouldn't use the rules of a game in one genre to play in the other one. I'm not going to use D&D to play Superheroes, I'm going to use Mutants & Masterminds-- a game that specifically took the rules of D&D and re-wrote them for the genre in question because even Steve Kenson knew that the D&D d20 rules as written was not the best tool for the job.
 

Scribe

Hero
If you can liken the two together... go nuts. More power to you.

But that doesn't change the fact that I think the Sorcerer's story in D&D kinda stinks, because I don't equate the fantasy and superhero genres. And I especially wouldn't use the rules of a game in one genre to play in the other one. I'm not going to use D&D to play Superheroes, I'm going to use Mutants & Masterminds-- a game that specifically took the rules of D&D and re-wrote them for the genre in question because even Steve Kenson knew that the D&D d20 rules as written was not the best tool for the job.
No worries, I feel the same about Warlock (as a story) and I don't think Artificer needs to exist at all.

To each their own. :)
 

Aldarc

Legend
No worries, I feel the same about Warlock (as a story) and I don't think Artificer needs to exist at all.

To each their own. :)
I think that the Warlock story has a clear place (cf. Faust, John Constantine, etc.), but I think that D&D does a LOUSY job at the class fantasy, but a big part of that has to do with how D&D forces all magic through its spell system. In contrast, the Goetic in Invisible Sun involves summoning, binding, and negotiating with angels, demons, spirits, etc. in exchange for favors. That's what (I think) the Warlock should be.

Absolutely. But as my original post stated... my problem was not that they only got their powers by being born, it was that they got power that could be equivalent of the other classes that had to work for it and thus I felt cheapened those classes. The Sorcerer as written was a bad story in my opinion.

But like I responded to Stalker0... had the Sorcerer been a half-caster or had some "cost" for getting power that would put them at equal footing with the Cleric, Wizard, or Druid (like for instance, wild magic surges, which I feel is the only worthwhile origin in my opinion)... I might like it more. But it doesn't, so I don't.
Sure, and people born with massive trust funds cheapens a lot of rags to riches stories, but they still are valid stories.
 

Scribe

Hero
I think that the Warlock story has a clear place (cf. Faust, John Constantine, etc.), but I think that D&D does a LOUSY job at the class fantasy, but a big part of that has to do with how D&D forces all magic through its spell system. In contrast, the Goetic in Invisible Sun involves summoning, binding, and negotiating with angels, demons, spirits, etc. in exchange for favors. That's what (I think) the Warlock should be.
Yeah, the concept is OK, but it is a complete miss to me in the 'feel' department.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Yeah, the concept is OK, but it is a complete miss to me in the 'feel' department.
The Patron feels orthogonal and opt-in for a class whose fluff is about a mage establishing a pact with a patron in exchange for magical power. There is little to no mechanical interactivity or reinforcement of the themes. Nothing like a Cleric's Divine Intervention or anything for the Warlock and their Patron.
 

Greg K

Hero
Are you not the one whose first response to me was the following...

"Sure, superpowers are supposed to be special in comic books with cool origin stories, but sometimes regular people are just born with them. And that's the narrative space in which mutants and the X-Men exist in Marvel."

That's the Superhero genre. And when I pointed out that D&D isn't that... you asked if I was sure about that.

And my answer is yes... Dungeons & Dragons is not the superhero genre.
Circe, Merlin (in some stories), Morgana/Morgan Le Fey (in some stories), Damien, Jack (in Supernatural), and that kid that turned Castiel into a toy soldier (again in Supernatural) have innate ability to due magic based on their birth. There are also other stories that I had read many years ago in which the Wizard/Sorcerer take someone as an apprentice, because they have the rare innate ability to cast magic.
So, the concept of an innate spell caster due to birth does fit fantasy as opposed to superheroes.
My issue is with most of the sub-classes and their abilities.
 


DeviousQuail

Adventurer
I picked three but if I had to pick only one it would be Sorcerer. I've tried it three different times and it's never quite lived up to what I've wanted from the class. I don't think it's the worst or most poorly designed class of 5e. It's just the one that has failed to hit expectations more often than any other.
 


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