D&D 5E What level is this spell?

Dausuul

Legend
I would put the new version at 5th level. It has gone from a specialized anti-archer spell to an all-in-one defensive option; it dishes out a nasty punch against anyone who engages you in melee, quite a bit heavier than fire shield, and it also shuts down most ranged attacks completely. For the vast majority of monsters, those are the only options they have. The only enemies that can bypass your defense are casters, fire immunes, and those with supersized ranged attacks (e.g., giants).

(I do not consider the missile redirect particularly relevant. You are unlikely to get more than one shot out of it, unless the monsters are exceptionally stupid.)
 

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Quickleaf

Legend
I would put the new version at 5th level. It has gone from a specialized anti-archer spell to an all-in-one defensive option; it dishes out a nasty punch against anyone who engages you in melee, quite a bit heavier than fire shield, and it also shuts down most ranged attacks completely. For the vast majority of monsters, those are the only options they have. The only enemies that can bypass your defense are casters, fire immunes, and those with supersized ranged attacks (e.g., giants).

(I do not consider the missile redirect particularly relevant. You are unlikely to get more than one shot out of it, unless the monsters are exceptionally stupid.)

Hmm. That's kind of what the original AD&D spell was. I mean, it seems like a precursor to fire shield - enemy attacks you in melee, enemy takes 2d6 fire damage (or 4d6 if touching you "bare-handed").

In trying to meaningfully differentiate it from fire shield, I went in the direction of a sphere of protection covering you and some allies.

But maybe that wasn't right.

Looking over the AD&D spell, now I wonder if it should provide some kind of protection vs. "touch" spells... For example bestow curse requires a touch and a Wisdom save. However, it's not a melee attack so wouldn't trigger fire shield. So maybe that's a niche for the spell? Defending against arrows and being touched (and possibly grappled)?

Hmm, are there even enough offensive "touch" spells to make it worthwhile for a caster to have a spell defending against them? Bestow curse (WIS save), Contagion (melee spell attack), Inflict Wounds (melee spell attack), Shocking Grasp (melee spell attack), Vampiric Touch (melee spell attack)...and that's it, so not really worth it.

Hmm. I'll have to mull it over more.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Here's an alternative version to consider. It offers no passive protection; you have to actively direct it, which seems in keeping with the concept of the spell, and also differentiates it from fire shield. Perhaps the closest comparison is spiritual weapon in a 4th-level slot. The damage output is comparable, and it adds a fairly potent defensive reaction. On the other hand, it's a much more resisted damage type, it requires you to get up close and personal, and it uses concentration. 4th level seems about right.

Fire Spiral
4th-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (small piece of pumice)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A spiraling tongue of flame coils around you, weaving and darting to intercept your foes. As a bonus action, you can direct the fire spiral to strike a creature within 10 feet. Make a melee spell attack. If you hit, the fire spiral deals 4d6 fire damage.

As a reaction, when a creature hits you with a nonmagical weapon attack, you can direct the fire spiral to intercept the blow. Roll as if making a melee spell attack; you have advantage if the weapon is Medium-sized or smaller. If the spell attack roll is equal to or greater than the enemy's attack roll, the fire spiral destroys the weapon before it hits.

If the attack was unarmed or using a natural weapon, the fire spiral deals 4d6 fire damage to the attacker instead. If this reduces the attacker to 0 hit points, the triggering hit is negated.
 
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Gadget

Adventurer
I think [MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] covered my explanation fairly well; but my main objection was not so much the damage (which may or may not have been comparable to other similar spells), but that it did so many things at once. It was like combining several defensive spells into one for a one-stop-shop that made it so appealing.

Dausul, I think the first paragraph of your new spell is similar (though of course different in details) to what Which Bolt should have been:heh:

As it is, it is about as good as Mordenkainen's Sword (about 2pts less average damage, a more resisted damage type and half the range), with added utility of using a reaction to negate a non magical weapon attack and destroying the weapon to boot (thereby disarming the poor sap). But this may be because MordenKainen's Sword is pretty much a terrible spell.:D

I'm also not sure about the roll melee spell attack to counter mechanic either, but I can't think of a better, 5e vetted one off hand. Maybe forcing the attacker to make a Dex save?
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Thanks for everyone's help from before! :)

[SBLOCK=Fire Spiral]
Al-Zahir’s Fire Spiral
4th-level evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (small piece of pumice)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A spiraling tongue of flame coils around you, weaving and darting to intercept your foes. As a bonus action, you can direct the fire spiral to strike a creature within 10 feet. Make a melee spell attack. If you hit, the fire spiral deals 4d6 fire damage.
As a reaction, when a creature hits you with a nonmagical weapon attack or unarmed attack, you can direct the fire spiral to intercept the blow. Roll as if making a melee spell attack; you have advantage if the weapon is Medium-sized or smaller. If your spell attack roll is equal to or greater than the creature’s attack roll, the fire spiral destroys the weapon before it strikes.
If the attack was unarmed or using a natural weapon, the fire spiral deals 4d6 fire damage to the attacker instead. If this reduces the attacker to 0 hit points, the triggering hit is negated.
At higher levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, both instances of damage increase by 1d6 for each slot level above 4th.
[/SBLOCK]

Next Spell: Beltyn's Burning Blood

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I believe this spell originally appeared in the Forgotten Realms Adventures (1990) by Jeff Grubb and Ed Greenwood, and a 3.5e version of it was printed in Unapproachable East (2003) by Rich Baker and Sean K. Reynolds.

It caused blood flowing from a creature's wounds to ignite, dealing ongoing fire/acid damage.

In AD&D it was a 4th level spell. In 3.5e it was a 5th level spell.

[SBLOCK=AD&D version of Beltyn's Burning Blood]
Beltyn’'s Burning Blood
(Necromancy)
Level: 4
Range: 10 yards/level
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 3 rounds
Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: 1 creature
Saving Throw: Neg.

By means of this spell, a mage can cause any creature who is presently bearing open, bleeding wounds (for example, one who has been damaged by edged weapons recently and whose wounds have not yet been dressed or healed) to suffer 3d4 points of additional damage per round by causing a subtle, temporary change in the victim’s blood that causes it to become corrosive to adjacent tissue.
The subject must have blood to be affected, and any creature immune or resistant to fire or corrosive damage cannot be affected. Once the spell is cast, the caster does not have to concentrate on the spell. It continues to work as the caster performs other actions. No attack roll is necessary and the victim need not even be in sight of the caster as long as the victim is within range. Astral or ethereal subjects cannot be affected.
The spell causes no damage if the subject’s saving throws are successful in each of the three rounds of the duration. If one saving throw is made, the subject still can take damage during the other two rounds of the duration. The spell continues to burn even if the victim moves out of range.
Targets who have altered their shape or entered other objects (such as a tree or stone) are still vulnerable to this spell as long as they are bleeding. Creatures who have powers of regeneration are only affected as long as they have open wounds. Any magical curative spell or regeneration ability
staunches the flow of blood and negates the spell.
The material component of the spell is a pinch of saltpeter and the presence of exposed blood.[/SBLOCK]

[SBLOCK=3.5e version of Beltyn's Burning Blood]
Beltyn's Burning Blood
Necromancy
Level: Nar Demonbinder 4, Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

You infuse a living creature's blood with a hot, corrosive mixture, dealing 1d8 points of acid damage and 1d8 points of fire damage per round. Each round, on its action, the subject may attempt a Fortitude save to negate that round's damage, but a successful save in one round does not necessarily prevent damage in future rounds. On any round in which the subject fails its Fortitude save, the pain limits it to a single move-equivalent action in that round.
Beltyn's burning blood does not affect creatures of the construct, elemental, ooze, plant, or undead types.
Material Component: A drop of blood and a pinch of saltpeter.[/SBLOCK]

The spell actually comes across as a toned down version of immolation (5th level) in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion...and yet it's of a similar level. Hmm.

[SBLOCK=5e Immolation for comparison]
Immolation
5th-level evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Flames wreathe one creature you can see within range. The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. It takes 7d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. On a failed save, the target also burns for the spell’s duration. The burning target sheds bright light in a 30-foot radius and dim light for an additional 30 feet. At the end of each of its turns, the target repeats the saving throw. It takes 3d6 fire damage on a failed save, and the spell ends on a successful one. These magical flames can’t be extinguished through nonmagical means.
If damage from this spell reduces a target to 0 hit points, the target is turned to ash.[/SBLOCK]

I have two versions I'm contemplating. Which do you think is a better (balanced & interesting) spell?

My 1st version goes for as direct a translation as possible. Compared to immolation over 3 rounds: immolation does 45.5(13d6) fire damage and kills you at 0 hp, whereas Beltyn's burning blood does 42(12d6) fire/acid damage which is harder to resist but can be ended by healing you. But otherwise it's quite similar to immolation, maybe *too* similar.

[SECTION]1st version: Beltyn's Burning Blood
4th-level evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (pinch of saltpeter)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You bring the blood of a wounded creature to an explosive boil. One living creature within range that you can see and is not at maximum hit points must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 2d6 acid damage and 2d6 fire damage as its blood boils with corrosive ichor, and its speed is reduced by half. At the end of each of its turns, the target repeats this save. It takes 2d6 acid damage and 2d6 fire damage on a failed save, and the spell ends on a successful one. If the target regains hit points through any means, the spell immediately ends.[/SECTION]

My 2nd version spices it up more, making the "end-on-heal" aspect more challenging and making the target function like a walking bomb to differentiate it from immolation.

[SECTION]2nd version: Beltyn’s Burning Blood
5th-level necromancy (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (pinch of saltpeter)
Duration: Instantaneous

You bring the blood of a wounded creature to an explosive boil. One living creature within range that you can see and is not at maximum hit points must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 2d6 acid damage and 2d6 fire damage as its blood boils with corrosive ichor, and its speed is reduced by half. At the end of each of its turns, the target repeats this save. It takes 2d6 acid damage and 2d6 fire damage on a failed save, and the spell ends on a successful one. If the target's hit points are restored to its hit point maximum, the spell immediately ends.

If damage from this spell reduces a creature to 0 hit points, it is killed and explodes in a spray of burning blood dealing 2d6 acid damage and 2d6 fire damage to creatures within 10 feet. A creature succeeding a Dexterity saving throw takes half that damage.
[/SECTION]
 
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