What levelling up rules do you use?

[ajevans]

One of the things that marks AD&D1e from many other editions are the following rules (paraphrased from the DMG p86):

• When you receive another XP to level up, you don't automatically level up.
• Any XP received above the level threshold is lost until you level up.
• You need to find someone to train you to level up, which takes x weeks and y GP

I'm curious if anyone plays this as RAW or just house-rules for something different?

 

[delericho]

I very very briefly used training rules in 2nd Ed. They didn't survive long - my players rebelled pretty quickly.

While they were in force, they most resembled your option 3 - you don't lose excess XP but didn't level until you received training.

 

[Gilladian]

In my campaigns we pretty much level up when I want them to, but I also do imply training, I just don't require it AT level up. PCs seek out training as part of their adventures, at least sometimes.

 

[Celebrim]

I think the first year or so I played by the rules, but the training rules - like most rules in the 1e AD&D DMG - really expected all campaigns to have a Haven/Megadungeon structure with a revolving cast of PC's. They weren't well suited to wilderness campaigns and adventure paths where downtime for training just because someone had leveled up meant putting the story on hiatus and always seemed to occur at some inconvenient time because PCs never leveled up together (owing to the fact each class required a different amount of XP). If you want to run a true old school campaign with the same assumptions Gygax had about play, it might be fun to use the training rules. But otherwise, just have it work more like modern games and level more or less immediately when the XP is earned.

 

[Hriston]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by capping XP or losing excess XP. My understanding of the RAW is that once a character is awarded enough XP to meet or exceed the threshold, then the character can no longer receive additional XP until undertaking the required training, which to me sounds more like your third option than your first.

 

[ajevans]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by capping XP or losing excess XP. My understanding of the RAW is that once a character is awarded enough XP to meet or exceed the threshold, then the character can no longer receive additional XP until undertaking the required training, which to me sounds more like your third option than your first.

So, lets say I'm a Thief at 1237XP and I get given 500XP by the DM. As RAW, my XP goes up to 1251 and stays there until I get trained up to Level 2.

So we return to the game next week and I don't find a mentor or don't have GP to level up. At the end of the session the DM awards everyone 400XP each - however my XP is still at 1251XP.

I finally get round to training and levelling up, and from then on I get to accumulate XP, but the original 486 excess and the 400XP from last week are lost.

 

[Hriston]

So, lets say I'm a Thief at 1237XP and I get given 500XP by the DM. As RAW, my XP goes up to 1251 and stays there until I get trained up to Level 2.

No. According to the RAW, your XP would go up to 1737 and would stay there until you complete your level 2 training. Here's the relevant passage from page 86 of the DMG:

Under no circumstance can a character gain additional experience points by any means until he or she actually acquires the higher level through the required training/study course. Thus, a character who successfully adventures and gains experience points which not only equal a new level but are almost sufficient to gain yet a second such level, cannot opt to forego the period of training and study necessary to go up a level in favor of gaining a few more points and training and studying for two levels at once. ONCE A CHARACTER HAS POINTS WHICH ARE EQUAL TO OR GREATER THAN THE MINIMUM NUMBER NECESSARY TO MOVE UPWARDS IN EXPERIENCE LEVEL, NO FURTHER EXPERIENCE POINTS CAN BE GAINED UNTIL THE CHARACTER ACTUALLY GAINS THE NEW LEVEL.​

So we return to the game next week and I don't find a mentor or don't have GP to level up. At the end of the session the DM awards everyone 400XP each - however my XP is still at 1251XP.

No, it's still at 1737. The moratorium on additional XP doesn't go into effect until the character has met or exceeded the minimum.

I finally get round to training and levelling up, and from then on I get to accumulate XP, but the original 486 excess and the 400XP from last week are lost.

You only "lost" the 400XP from last week, not the original 486 that were part of the 500 you earned as a level 1 thief. This is why I'm having trouble answering your poll.

 

[ajevans]

Hriston, okay I see you what you are saying but interpret the rules differently from you, otherwise let's say you found 200,000GP you would have enough XP to gain multiple levels, riding roughshod over Gygax's fretting over PCs being able to advance several levels in one go.

I think either is a valid interpretation given the wording.

In your case then, please interpret the poll as the following:

Option1: As you see RAW
Option2: (Doesn't apply per your interpretation)
Option3: Require training to level up but you're allowed to accrue XP in the meantime
Option4: As written.

 

[Hriston]

Hriston, okay I see you what you are saying but interpret the rules differently from you, otherwise let's say you found 200,000GP you would have enough XP to gain multiple levels, riding roughshod over Gygax's fretting over PCs being able to advance several levels in one go.

Yes, in the event of a Monty Haul DM, a level 1 thief could possibly have enough XP to advance to level 10. However, the thief would not be eligible to gain any additional XP until such time as the training for each level in between was completed and paid for. That you see this as a problem and have interpreted the rules in such a way as to address the problem doesn't justify labeling your interpretation as RAW.

I think either is a valid interpretation given the wording.

Whether valid or not, it's your interpretation, while what is written in the book is something else.

In your case then, please interpret the poll as the following:

Option1: As you see RAW
Option2: (Doesn't apply per your interpretation)
Option3: Require training to level up but you're allowed to accrue XP in the meantime
Option4: As written.

I see. Alright, I chose option 1, with the caveat that the cap is on additional XP above what was already earned to bring the PC's XP total equal to or in excess of the XP threshold for the next higher level.

 

[was]

...We ignored the RAW in this regard and always automatically levelled up when we had sufficient XP. Experience was looked at as on-the-job training.

 

[Blue]

Answering for AD&D 2nd, not sure if that's useful.

You didn't get level until you trained, but XP wasn't capped until 1 point before the next level. So you didn't lose it. Since it took a year of play to level that wasn't a big deal.

DM came up with additional houserules in case you are interested. You needed a trainer at least 1 (2?) levels higher until name level. After that you could train yourself at double the time if you couldn't find a trainer. Oh, and no idea if we used the standard time or not, I think we used 1d4 weeks per level which would be brutal except we all had a lot of downtime activities to do, like spell research and building castles.

 

[ccs]

You're poll lack "Other" as an option. I have to vote "Other".

1e games I've run & played in have varied from strict RAW on this subject to more variations than I can recall.

One of my favorite variants was (is?):
When you have enough XP to lv, make an Intelligence check. (remember, stat checks were roll = or under your score) If you passed? Then you didn't need to seek training from another & lvd up. If you still had enough XP to qualify for additional lvs? Then repeat the Int check. Pass, gain another lv.
Fail? Then you stop advancing & gain no more XP until you got that outside training as per the book. Once that training time passed, make another Int check. Pass & advance your lv and resume earning XP. Fail? Spend the gold/time again & repeat the course.....
I think the most lvs I ever saw someone get this way all at once was 4. It was a 1st lv character who'd joined a party whose average lv was 8.
But generally the possibility of gaining multiple lvs only came into play at low lvs or if you were already really close to hitting another lv.

Once you hit "name lv" you just auto-lvd when you had enough pts.

 

[Lanefan]

Answering for AD&D 2nd, not sure if that's useful.

You didn't get level until you trained, but XP wasn't capped until 1 point before the next level. So you didn't lose it. Since it took a year of play to level that wasn't a big deal.

For modified 1e here:

We don't cap them, but if you don't get training your advancement starts steadily slowing down until you do:
- after the 1/3 point through the new (untrained) level you start losing 1/3 of any xp gained (but get the other 2/3) - this happens somewhat regularly but not all the time
- after the 2/3 point through the new level you start losing 2/3 of any xp gained (but get the other 1/3) - this is quite uncommon
- if you somehow grind your way all the way through the new level you are considered trained for it and advance at 1/2 rate from then on into the next (now new) level (this is very rare - only happened twice in 35 years I can think of)
- in any case, advancement returns to normal once you train.

DM came up with additional houserules in case you are interested. You needed a trainer at least 1 (2?) levels higher until name level. After that you could train yourself at double the time if you couldn't find a trainer. Oh, and no idea if we used the standard time or not, I think we used 1d4 weeks per level which would be brutal except we all had a lot of downtime activities to do, like spell research and building castles.

We have it that your trainer has to be at least one level above what you are training into e.g. to train into 5th you need a 6th trainer. At or near "name" level you can self-train. There are always costs involved, usually about 1000 g.p. per level bring trained into (so, 5000-ish to train to 5th), except if you're "in penalty" (i.e. you've gone far enough into the new level that your xp are slowing down as noted above) the costs are reduced as you've already learned some of it on the fly. We aren't as harsh on the time, it usually takes about 7-10 days to train once you can find a trainer and get stuck in.

Lan-"the other exception is if you're picking up a whole new class, which takes months to even get started"-efan

 

[dagger]

Here is how we have done it since 1994 (have been a few exceptions), not sure what option to use in your poll, maybe the 4th?

1) All monster, magic item, and treasure XP goes into a pot that is divided evenly. This prevents issues and keeps things fair.
2) No excess XP is lost. So if the thief gets enough to jump two levels early on, so be it. He/she needs it...
3) You can level up in any location, but it requires a full nights sleep.
4) No training per the DMG is required, unless you are human and are going to DUAL CLASS. This also applies to the bard, but does not apply if you are running the 2e version. We let players run 2e classes sometimes.

Thats it...



Level Limits:

We have always used them, but we use the limits out of Unearthed Arcana. After that you can still level, its just double the XP.

 

[billd91]

We used to play with a lot of the level-up and training rules intact back when we played 1e. It forced some pretty tough decisions on the group - whether to stop and head off for training or whether to keep going. It significantly affected how fast characters leveled up and how much wealth was available to us. Eventually, we relaxed things a bit as far as training time, but still not costs and that still exerted a significant effect on how fast PCs leveled up because there were still times we didn't have the scratch to pay for the leveling costs.

Ultimately, 3e's unified XP table and lack of training time/cost simplified things a great deal.

 

[blitzpackage]

Characters earned Xps up until they reached the amount needed to achieve a second level then they were capped until they trained. 1st level thief could earn 3000 exp. Trained to level 2 then can earn up to the level 3 max.

 

[pdzoch]

I used to require the training session -- players expended gold during the down time between adventures to level up. However, it became cumbersome in campaigns where levels are achieved in the middle of adventure and the setting did not logically allow for "trainers" to be readily available.

Now, they automatically level up, as per on the job training. Some features, like new spells, require availability and might not be part of the level advancement (ie. spells are automatically added between adventures, assuming the spellcaster made some sort of effort to obtain them during the down time; but would not be added deep in the bowels of the underdark unless they had access to a scroll or spellbook they were waiting to add to their list).

I tend to reserve training mission to special features/benefits of a class, like the Bard colleges or Druidic Circles, or to set up campaign NPCs.

 

[Psikerlord#]

My favourite way to level up is the Incremental Increase from 13th Age and similarly the Session Advance from Low Fantasy Gaming. Basically, take one thing from your next level, and gain it between sessions.

 

[Lanefan]

My favourite way to level up is the Incremental Increase from 13th Age and similarly the Session Advance from Low Fantasy Gaming. Basically, take one thing from your next level, and gain it between sessions.

Not familiar with this. Do the gains come between sessions of play without regard to the game environment or in-game time, or does the character have to rest to get the benefits?

Lanefan

 

[Psikerlord#]

Not familiar with this. Do the gains come between sessions of play without regard to the game environment or in-game time, or does the character have to rest to get the benefits?

Lanefan

Well for LFG there is a requirement that the PC meaningfully contributed to the session, but other than that, no need to train/rest to gain the benefits by default. Like all things LFG however, the rules are subject to the GM, and the advancement section includes a paragraph that some GMs might require training etc.