D&D 5E What Magic System do you prefer?

[Delazar]

I voted snowflake.

What I would really like would be a system with ZERO book-keeping. Basically, I think I'd like something like "all spells are at-will".

Before you get out your pitchforks, I'm thinkg of something like Warhammer Fantasy RP 2e, where a wizard could cast any spell he knew at will, but of course the other side of the coin was that here and there a demon could suddenly appear and eat your whole party. Good times.

 

[Corpsetaker]

Honestly, for the purposes of Playing D&D my favorite is the 5e system as written. It solves so many problems I previously had, I can't imagine going back.

Question? Exactly what problems were you having that the 5th edition's magic system solved?

 

[steeldragons]

I voted "snowflake", since for some reason that disdain-laden term was chosen instead of just saying "Homebrewed" or "Personal Alterations" to X base system. But that was the vote.

There is nothign "wrong" with the 5e system, as is. Though I share a number of posters' opinions in the spamming/overuse-creating-dullness/"pew-pew"/video game feel of "combat" cantrips. And, the "at-will" of cantrips, in general, is a no go for me regardless of whatever else is done with the magic system.

So, for starters, if/when I am to run a 5e game, the "at-will" component will come out. I am guessing a suitable replacement would be borrowed from our 1e days of cantrip use and say:

Cantrips known stays as is, once you know them, they're known. Use 'em as many or as few times or whatever combinations situations require as you can within your daily [long rest] allotment.

Introduce cantrip level slots equal to "level + Casting Ability modifier" [per long rest]. If a 4th or 5th level caster has, say 10 cantrip slots per day to use minor magic to perform various mundane tasks or tricks, they are going to seem pretty darn magical to anyone. [EDIT to add With a bit of creativity and modicum of showmanship, you might not have to use any of your leveled spell slots at all, throwing that much magic around! [/EDIT]

Clerics & Druids would have their pick of their whole list, as normal. Wizards and warlocks would have to find/learn/choose from their list. All of them at level + casting ability modifier per day. I might be tempted to permit "at will" use of cantrips to Sorcerers. Seems flavor-appropriate and further differentiates them from wizards or warlocks (the bulk of whom's "at will" magic is -I believe as intended and keeping with the flavor- their invocations and "invested" magical abilities from their patrons.)

For "leveled" spell casting, again, I would introduce [to 5e]/maintain from the 2e days, our homebrewed system of spontaneous casting, which is...somewhat similar to 5e-casting is as written. That is, for arcane-users (as the differentiation of arcane/divine/nature magics are a real and present element of my homebrewed world, moreso than the kind of unspoken/understood/"do what you want with it" division of 5e), you learn/prepare your spells as normal. You accumulate your selection as much as you can/want.

The two alterations (aside from limiting cantrips) for Arcane spell-users:
1. Added "spell levels".
You add a number of slots you can cast (within the levels you can already cast) equal to your Casting Ability modifier. So a mage with Int. +3 would be able to add 3 "[spell] levels worth of magic" to their casting slots for the day. Depending on the mage's level, this could be just 3 1st level slots, a 1st and a 2nd level slot, or 1 3rd level slot. These extra slots must be for slot levels you can already cast, e.g. a 1st level wizard can not cast a 3rd level spell simply because they have 3 spell levels worth of magic to add to their allotment.

2. Spontaneous Casting. I would follow casting progression as presented, but the spontaneous casting choices (selecting which spells to use in which slots) would be relegated to your bottom tiers. That is, you have to study/prepare your spells every day, as normal, until you can cast two tiers higher. At which point, your lower tiers become spontaneous castings.

i.e. Our first level mage, as above with +3 slots, [don't have my books with me, so just go with whatever numbers I use here) has 2 1st level slots, by the book, + 3 slots from their Int. mod., for a total of 5 possible castings of their prepared 1st level spells.

At 3rd level, they get 2nd level slots, they continue to choose and prepare spells known by them, as their slots all. The "extra" slots may now be used to add 3 1st level slots or 1 1st and 1 2nd level slots. All must still be prepared to be used.

At 5th level, let's say the Int. mod. has increased to +4, they gain their 3rd level spell slots. NOW, they must still choose prepare their 2nd level spells and their new 3rd level spell(s) and can not cast what is not prepared. Their 1st level slots may be used/filled with whatever 1st level spells they have access to, without preparation. Just choose, as the situations arise, from the magics at your disposal (whether that is "known" or in your spellbook) and use you slots, as normal. No prep necessary for slots two spell levels lower than your highest slot.

So, at 7th level, when 4th level spells are gained, the mage's 1st AND 2nd level spells need not be prepared, but 3rd and 4th must be. And so on.

For Divine casters, in 5e (as well as old school), this is all kind of moot since they have full access to any/all spells on their lists anyway. Though the added spell levels from their casting ability (Wis) would apply as above.

Nature casters in my homebrew/campaign world setting, Druids & Bards as far as 5e is concerned (and Witches, but that's a whole 'nuther can o' rot grubs) are kind of an "in between" thing and I'd have to really see what I wanted to do with them. Generally speaking, Druids lean toward the "access to anything on the list" of a cleric, and Bards lean to "prepared it out of your magical-music" repetoire/songbook of a mage (i.e. If you don't know the right song/lyrics/chords, you can't properly "cast" your magic). So different access points/procedures to rather overlapping spell selections.

Anywho, that's my answer.

Homebrew [snowflake].

But the 5e system as written is perfectly easily playable without alterations at all.

 

[TwoSix]

Ohmygod, thank you for pointing me at this. I didn't even know that version of Mage existed.

Yea, Awakening is pretty good. The Sphere system is much more defined than Ascension. (You can actually make a fireball without 2 dots in Prime!) The setting is interesting, although it doesn't quite have the panache of the original. The 5 paths of Awakening (Acanthus, Mastigos, Moros, Thyrsus, Obrimos) would make pretty good D&D classes, though.

 

[rooneg]

Question? Exactly what problems were you having that the 5th edition's magic system solved?

I always found it super weird that casting a spell would wipe all knowledge of it from a caster's mind. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance between that and basically all fantasy fiction that's not explicitly D&D based. It also has awkward game level interactions where you have to explicitly make decisions about how many of each spell to prepare, etc, which rarely seem to fit with even actual D&D fiction. You regularly see characters in TSR's novels whipping out some spell that you KNOW nobody in an actual D&D game would prepare ahead of time. Ritual casting fixes that to a degree, and able to recast spells you've prepared means you can at least prepare some utility stuff without hamstringing your character in combat situations.

I also found it super weird that low level wizards were typically more effective carrying around a crossbow and shooting people with it each turn instead of casting spells. That also failed to represent the fiction (both D&D specific fiction and generic fantasy fiction), and didn't feel particularly wizard like to me. Cantrips solve that problem and let your first level wizard at least feel like a wizard when they're out of spells.

And relative to old school Basic D&D and 2nd edition the fact that you start out with more than one spell per day is a huge difference. That's not new to this edition, but it's new to me ;-)

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, thanks for the interesting digressions:

Although I'm a fan of the 5E system, what I'd really love is something that could replicate D&D spells, but that was born of a system akin to Mage: The Ascension.

That could be the sphere system. You could use the spheres to build any D&D spell. The odd restrictions on the spell would just be foci & paradigm.

I'm mulling over doing a game with Hyper-Vancian. Wherein a high-level mage might memorize 5 or 10 spells. Maybe 1 per odd level. Lots of odd and esoteric spells that need to be unearthed in dusty tomes.

Vance didn't go into how long it took to memorize a spell or how long you had to wait to memorize a new one that I recall. Memorize-into-slots, with fewer, but higher level slots, might work. Vance also essentially had only two spell levels, lesser & greater or something like that, with a mage able to memorize more of the former instead of the latter. That could be tricky. A progression where you slowly went from 1 1st level slot to 4 or 5 5th-level slots, then slowly gained another 1-4 high level slots, starting at 6th and working your way up to 9th. So a 20th level wizard might have 5 5th level slot and 5 9th, for instance?

A concern here is PC mages, and if you allow them. There have been some similar discussions on the Primeval Thule forums about making magic more dangerous to use or more unwieldy, and a big concern is how much of a pain magic use can become before it just isn't worth the hassle.

One compensating factor is that the less common and less understood magic is in the setting, the relatively greater the advantage it affords the characters able to use it. In a high-magic world, a PC with invisibility is just another trickster. Any well-guarded area will have precautions to prevent it being breached by some low-level joker with an invisibility spell or potion, from pragmatic, "doors must always be kept closed" and those doors have bells on them, to the annoying (why do we have chalk dust all over the place) to the fire-with-fire of magical wards. In a low-enough magic world, if you come to the lord of the castle saying an invisible man opened the door to his vault, you might be convicted of the theft, yourself, or maybe dealt with however your culture deals with lunatics. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. So, yeah, casting that invisibility spell requires imperiling your soul to learn, and running a small chance of being noticed and carried off by an invisible demon who can only see you because you're invisible, just might be worth it.

And, sorry for any negative connotations.

I voted "snowflake", since for some reason that disdain-laden term was chosen instead of just saying "Homebrewed" or "Personal Alterations" to X base system. But that was the vote.

Thank you! Snowflake's been used in a lot of polls as the I-don't-quite-agree-with-any-of-these-answers answer, I thought it light-hearted. 'Homebrew' or 'House Rule' have been used with disdain, too, so... I had to use something, thanks for detailing it, though, that's always interesting.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I prefer no cantrips/at-wills, stronger spells (ala 2e and earlier, but only up to 12th level, with haste/polymorph fixed) with no need to memorize, but you cannot use higher level slots for lower level spells AND the caster's action is wasted if take damage before spell goes off BUT you dont lose the spell (losing your action is punishment enough).

So, erm, an odd mix of 2e and 5e ...?

 

[Arnwolf]

I'm a big fan of each spell slot for wizards being prepared in advance. I love the idea that each spell has to be individually crafted in advance for wizards. I actually prefer other systems for the other classes. I would actually like the warlock class to be the new cleric for my tastes.

 

[Arnwolf]

Yes memorization is weird if you are not familiar with Jack Vance's work. But replace the work "memorization" with "preparation" as 3E did and it makes much more sense.

 

[Psikerlord#]

A concern here is PC mages, and if you allow them. There have been some similar discussions on the Primeval Thule forums about making magic more dangerous to use or more unwieldy, and a big concern is how much of a pain magic use can become before it just isn't worth the hassle.

What sounds good from a world-building perspective doesn't always play out well at the table/on the field.

I believe the trick to inherently dangerous magic is to make it roughly a 50/50 chance of being dangerous to the caster/nearby allies, and the other 50% is dangerous to the enemy. There is still a bit of a "nerf" aspect to magic, just because magic becomes less reliable and more dangerous to all parties, but the trade off is worth it imo - more atmosphere/mystery/more powerful effects - magic feels more "magical" (for want of a better term).