What makes a Sandbox?

[Mallus]

Which is why S'mon's orc raiding party is not a sandbox-style encounter.

Does everything in a sandbox-style campaign need to follow from (or at least involve) player choice, or can orc hordes just invade from time to time?

 

[The Shaman]

Does everything in a sandbox-style campaign need to follow from (or at least involve) player choice, or can orc hordes just invade from time to time?

Orc hordes can invade from time to time; the referee runs the world and determines the macro-scale events. (My personal preference is to randomize this as much as possible, frex the events generator in 1e AD&D OA.)

But deciding that the adventurers meet an orc raiding party no matter what the players choose to do is pretty much the opposite of a status quo setting.

 

[Ariosto]

I find it interesting that the term "sandbox" even needs to be used. Prior to 1984, there was no need for any term beyond "D&D campaign."

Yeah, and when I met this "sandbox" term a few years ago, my impression was that it was supposed to mean what "D&D campaign" used to mean.

No dice, though. When people aren't trying to bash me -- someone who has been playing in and running "old style" D&D since it was the hot new thing -- over the head with their redefinitions of "sandbox", they're doing it to their fellow "new schoolers".

So, when someone starts threads asking what's proper for a "sandbox", he might really be looking for help on how to manipulate and manage players' experiences so that they conform to his adventure-path expectations. In any case, that's one (or a bunch) of the things he's going to get!

I give up. When I refer to old D&D, I will call it just that. There are texts as objective referents.

 

[Ariosto]

The prize goes to the guy who arbitrarily redefines "sandbox" as something that cannot exist and so cannot be discussed in practical terms.

Riiight.

 

[Mythmere1]

Sometimes terminology gets in the way of actual meaningful discussion that's useful to gaming. Not that it's bad to discuss terminology, just to keep it in perspective. It's a bit like the whole "what is old school" debate that rears up from time to time with relative meaninglessness.

I don't think it's important to define "sandbox," but I do think it's important to take note of the GAMING points and advice that are raised about the term.

I also (agreeing with others above) think it's about:
1) meaningful choices for players, and
2) the ability for those choices to change the map. If the DM is not willing to see precious city names like "Zthar" get changed into "Jim's Stronghold," then it's not a sandbox.

One point about pre-prepared encounters. They are fine, as long as they are treated like Schroedinger's cat. Here's what I mean. I think it's still a sandbox if the DM has an index card with "Gronk's Orc Horde" statted out on it -- Gronk's Horde is in the status of Schroedinger's Cat. The players keep risking encounters with orc hordes, and might keep avoiding them for a long time. They don't know the risk was Gronk's Horde each and every time. But when contact is made - and the box with the cat is opened - then Gronk's Horde becomes a part of the sandbox and can't teleport about following the players.

 

[pawsplay]

Does everything in a sandbox-style campaign need to follow from (or at least involve) player choice, or can orc hordes just invade from time to time?

Not everything can follow from player choice. A sandbox assumes a somewhat objective environment. If everything derives from player choice, that's shared narration.

Conversely, a sandbox game does not escape the demands of playability. Simply because the format is a pre-imagined space does not mean stuff "off screen" cannot be modified or, as pointed out, independent events will not impact PCs regardless of choice. Imagine a wide open gamespace, but wherein certain actions trigger a scripted encounter. In a linear game, that encounter is laying in wait, but in a sandbox game, it is simply waiting.

Wandering into orc territory is a good reason to encounter orcs. In a sandbox game, the encounter is assigned to a certain time or area where it is logical to occur. In a linear game, characters are steered toward the encounter, or it is changed to brigands so that the same encounter propels the PCs in the preferred direction.

I do not consider linear versus sandbox to be categories of games, but as poles on one axis of campaign design, with games tending toward one or the other in most respects.

 

[Scribble]

What if the example isn't so cut and dry?

What if say, you have an orc camp. You know it's "in the woods" if the PCs go into the woods (doesn't matter which one) they meet the orc camp.

If they go into the swamp (again it doesn't matter which swamp) they don't.


Sandbox? Not Sandbox?

 

[Mythmere1]

What if the example isn't so cut and dry?

What if say, you have an orc camp. You know it's "in the woods" if the PCs go into the woods (doesn't matter which one) they meet the orc camp.

If they go into the swamp (again it doesn't matter which swamp) they don't.


Sandbox? Not Sandbox?

I'd say sandbox. I posted above on it, but I think it's still definitely a sandbox if the DM has index cards - or whatever - with pregen encounters that can be subbed in wherever necessary. As long as the players can avoid the RISK of encountering that as-yet-inchoate risk, it's still a sandbox. The pregen encounters, residing in Schroedinger's-cat-space, are just a DM tool. Once they enter reality with some sort of encounter, though, they need to begin acting as part of the reality.

 

[bert1000]

You can easily have event based encounters in sandbox play. I like using a mixture of location and time factors in my campaign. Something will happen at a certain location at a particular time unless the actions of the PC's alter or prevent a given event.

This is what I most equate with a sandbox. The DM must move the parts of the world forward as if the PCs didn't exist until the PCs interact with the part.

So, if the PCs decide to head into a valley, the DM has already determined how the activities of the valley will occur if the PCs didn't go there that day. In fact, Orcs exist in the valley, most of them are sleeping in location X, and a patrol will follow a certain pattern of movement, etc.

In a sandbox, the DM will not alter the path of the patrol so that there is an encounter. If the PCs randomly march through the valley and don't look for or stumble on the Orc den or patrol, then that is how it is. No encounters in the valley that session.

 

[pawsplay]

What if the example isn't so cut and dry?

What if say, you have an orc camp. You know it's "in the woods" if the PCs go into the woods (doesn't matter which one) they meet the orc camp.

If they go into the swamp (again it doesn't matter which swamp) they don't.


Sandbox? Not Sandbox?

The context is missing. Why are the PCs going there? Are they aware of the orc camp? If it comes down having a forest camp map but not a swamp one, it has little to do with campaign idealogy and more to do with encounter design.