What makes a Sandbox?

I believe there was also a DW game where the monsters quietly leveled up with you, making advancement futile, but preserving essentially the same exploration model.

I don't recall playing that one, but I did get bored with the Elder Scrolls: Oblivion game because of the scaling monsters. For me, getting powerful enough to survive in the tough areas, where there's likely the best treasure, is what's fun. Plus, if I want to chance it, I can try to make it before I'm ready. I realize not everyone enjoys that sort of thing, but what's great about D&D is that we don't all have to play the same way.

Edit: Incidentally, I'm currently playing in a 4E game where the DM's running through the published WotC modules.. it's fairly linear and, of course, scaled to our level - basically the opposite of what I said I liked. Despite being suboptimal for me, I still have fun because I like the other group members and I ratchet up my personal danger level by always trying to pull stupid stunts with my guy. Plus, I suppose we all basically agreed to "take this path" when the DM solicited players, because we knew it was an "adventure path" type campaign. Might be a LITTLE different if I'd signed up for a sandbox and realized we were being forced through the modules.
 
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You can easily have event based encounters in sandbox play. I like using a mixture of location and time factors in my campaign. Something will happen at a certain location at a particular time unless the actions of the PC's alter or prevent a given event.



If I decide to run encounter X and no decisions or activities of the PC's will impact encounter X then choice is an illusion.

Not true at all.

If the PCs head east and meet encounter X then that leads to an entirely different situation than if they had gone west and met encounter X, due to the nature of the setting elements in those locations, and encounter X's impact on them.

The PCs have made a meaningful choice because now they are dealing with the consequences of encounter X in location Y instead of location Z. Or maybe they are still in location W because they chose not to go anywhere and encounter X came to them.

Is that any different from sending encounter X to location W/Y/Z and not having the players be there?

Does the DM always have to make his choices before the players make theirs?

Just because the PCs are in a sandbox doesn't mean you can't throw threats at them that will change the status quo nature of the setting.

I mean, sandboxers keep saying that their sandbox includes events that occur whether the PCs follow them up or not; why can't events occur in the vicinity of the PCs regardless of which direction they head?

Either way, it is only the whim of the DM that determines where and when these events happen.
 

The term Dungeon Master didn't actually appear in a D&D book, IIRC, until Supplement III.

The earlier term, referee, seems to have been pretty straightforward early in the Blackmoor campaign. The reference, in D&D Volume 1, to players taking the roles of monsters such as Balrogs or Dragons apparently harks back to early practice. The referee did not have to decide what Sir Fang or the Egg of Coot would do -- because the player of said power would decide for himself.

Even after the mapping and stocking of dungeons was left entirely in the hands of the DM, the referee role had plenty of scope because "the referee to player ratio should be about 1:20 or thereabouts" -- and because "it is probable that there will be various groups going every which way and all at different time periods."

The main part of the extra burden on a DM in emulating such a campaign with more limited resources is modeling the effects that another three or four times as many "adventuring parties" would have.

The original game design indeed "assumes proactive and ambitious player characters with goals who will, when left to their own devices, seek out these goals." A lot of "plots" could be expected from the collisions of such players' ambitions.

Nor was the number of such schemers limited to the number of players. There is no rule in the books against a player having more than one character in a campaign. Taking into account the suggested reckoning of time, a player might by such a rule be barred from play altogether for several weeks because of the circumstances of a single character. Moreover, what was the player who had attained the heights of "name" level to do? Was he to be barred for the rest of his Lord's or Wizard's or Patriarch's life from ever again engaging in adventures appropriate to worthies of lesser stature? The "endgame" then would seem to be character suicide. Absurd! And what of the player whose high-level character dies a final death? Must he be limited to playing a first-level character? What of those "dungeon modules" for sale in the shops? If a player has but one character in the campaign, then he'll need non-campaign characters for those as a routine matter.

In short, even a single player might be expected to have multiple characters pursuing multiple intrigues.

"A good dungeon should have no less than a dozen levels down, with offshoot levels in addition, and new levels under construction so that players will never grow tired of it." Why? What is the point of all that, if, at any given instant, "the party is level X"?

The point is that "the party" was not at all an assumption, much less that all its members should all be level X. The campaign had no "level". The underworld -- and the rest of the milieu as well -- was to accommodate the ongoing activities of a large cast of characters of quite various ambitions and capabilities, from petty thieves to wizards consorting with gods.

While I certainly appreciate your nostalgia for the golden age, I'd say for most of us the game has seriously moved on from the style of play you describe.
 

While I certainly appreciate your nostalgia for the golden age, I'd say for most of us the game has seriously moved on from the style of play you describe.
Then let the dead bury the dead.

If you're determined to pound square pegs into round holes, then at least take the measure of the matter!

Or just don't bother -- but in that case, please do not bother us with fatuous complaints.
 

In sandbox play, the DM is more of a "revealer of reality" vs. a "director of drama".

Now, I find this is hard to always implement in real play.

I think this the biggest problem with claiming a certain game to be an absolute sandbox (vs games that are not sandboxes) rather than stating the degree to which it is a sandbox (or intended to be).

With human DM and players a true sandbox is only possible in theory and one wonders whether it is even desirable.

If the DM is ideally a 'revealer of reality', how is that reconciled with him not also being a 'director of drama' if the same DM created the reality in the first place? Whatsmore, if he is called upon to reveal (create) reality on the fly - in response to PC actions - how can he possibly put aside his inclination (to whatever degree) to also be a director of drama?

The DM is only human after all.
 

Then let the dead bury the dead.

If you're determined to pound square pegs into round holes, then at least take the measure of the matter!

Or just don't bother -- but in that case, please do not bother us with fatuous complaints.

Less snark please.
 

@Snoweel: Less parochial pride in ignorance, please. Or how else is it such a canker on your posterior that the universe existed prior to your personal event horizon?
 

So, the more players know about where the orc horde was not, the more that further possibilities are constrained.

It is incumbent on the DM, I think, to have a "reasonably precise" view of R.O.M.'s whereabouts. Its appearance, however sudden, must be consistent with whatever phenomena previously informed players.

Why? Because the only way to "retcon" that information is likely to be to rewind and replay so much that the encounter warranting the exercise in the first place gets shunted off to an alternate timeline.

So how do you feel about the new Points of Light assumption?

No longer does the game assume a standard world of nations, defined borders, long-distance communications, well-informed NPCs and 'reliable' intelligence.

In this setting the PCs will often be the subject matter experts on what exists outside the Points of Light, meaning the first they know about an Orc horde is an encounter with some kind of screening patrol.

Add to that the reduced ability of PCs to track the movement of an Orc horde and the DM has a lot less going on behind the scenes that he needs to meticulously account for.

Surely that's a good thing?
 


@Snoweel: Less parochial pride in ignorance, please. Or how else is it such a canker on your posterior that the universe existed prior to your personal event horizon?

No I think it's great that you've got a retro hobby. I collect sneakers from the 1980s so there's some common ground between us.
 

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