What needs to be fixed/improved in d20 Modern?

[The Black Kestrel]

With all the talk about the fate of d20 Modern I thought I'd toss this topic up. Assuming that d20 Modern is going to get a face lift by WotC, what rules need to fixed and/or improved to enhance game play?

The intent of this post is identify what rules and subsytems in d20 Modern need to be replaced, revised and/or fixed. After the majority of common problems have been identified I'll start a new thread on recommended fixes.

Here are a couple rules and subsystems I have issues with:

Non-lethal damage
Gadget System (the system is inconsistent with itself)
Aerial and Starship Combat/movement (or more accurately lack thereof)
Robot creation rules (specifically character creation and NPC robot rules)

 

[Vigilance]

The class system has become my biggest issue with d20 Modern over time.

 

[Inferno!]

The class system has become my biggest issue with d20 Modern over time.

How so? The class system has been my biggest issue too. However, having purchased many of your products, I suspect my reasons are not the same as yours.

 

[Vigilance]

How so? The class system has been my biggest issue too. However, having purchased many of your products, I suspect my reasons are not the same as yours.

Well first, here's hoping you liked all those products of mine!

As regards to classes, both in my home GMing and my work, the preponderance of multi-classing, indeed, the REQUIREMENT of multi-classing, was my big issue with the Basic/Advanced/PrC set-up.

Even low level NPCs needed to be multi-classed, and basically from 1st level, you had to map out what you were taking, with an AdC in mind, and then a PrC after that.

It made statting up NPCs a HUGE pain, to the point that I hated doing it. In fact, my boss, RPGObjects owner Chris Davis, had heard me complain enough that he assumed I just didn't like statting up NPCs.

I then explained that doing NPCs in Modern20 didn't bother me at all, since multi-classing was optional*.

I've already answered this question in a way, because when I wrote Modern20 I set out to address certain issues I had had with D20M, as someone who had probably ran and written more for the game than anyone else.

It was interesting to me of course, that some of my issues were not other people's issues, and that whole discussion leading up to Modern20 was educational and informative.

Chuck

*Yes, I know multi-classing isn't technically required in d20M either, but in a pay product, I think taking the easy way out is cheap. People are paying me (ostensibly) to do something they'd rather not do themselves, or least spend more time on it than they would.

 

[Nadaka]

Mostly? Vehicles and the skill system. Plus feats should be worthy of the name.

I like the class system a lot, but I have a few crazy ideas bubbling around in my head that require a radical departure from the standard 6 ability classes.

 

[Greg K]

For myself:
1) Fx rules: Fixed by replacing them with Psychic's Handbook (Green Ronin)and Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth (EN World)
2) Martial Arts: Fixed by Blood & Fists (RPGObjects) by Vigilance himself
3) Automatic Weapon Fire
4) NPC creation: fixed by Foe Factory (Adamant) by HeapThaumaturgist
5) Chase Rules: fixed by Hot Pursuit and Hot Pursuit: On Foot (Adamant)
6) The need for some kind of condition track for HP loss. Then, add a second wind mechanic. Maybe characters get fatigued at 50% hp loss, Exhausted at 25% HP loss. Second Wind then gives 25% of max hp back.
7) Negative HP: I'd like to see these removed and replaced with something along the lines of the Death and Dying Rules from Unearthed Arcana.
8) Sucky WOTC advanced and prestige classes. They should look at Advanced classes from RPGObjects
9) Mediocre to poor support products. They need to look at products from companies like RPGObjects, Adamant, and the GR and EN Publising producs mentioned above to see what quality products look like.
10) Charles "Vigilance" Rice is not writing their supplements

Edit: 11) I'd like to see occupations give a rank in the class skills granted.
12) The save throw bonuses. I really dislike the +2 save bonuses from certain advanced classes

 

[CountPopeula]

Honestly, I think it's classes, too. I think the only real answer is to A) go classless or B) focus the game and system on a specific genre.

Working a class system into a system with a generic system just doesn't work that well. I realize the classes are generic, but still, it's too much like square peg, round hole.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Classes:
The talents are bland in actual play, and I think they also don't work that well. The mechanics are inconsistent (roll level against DC, cause saving throw and so on)

The idea I like most at the moment is splitting classes or rather character advancement in two components - a combat role (Controller, Defender, Leader, Striker) and a non-combat role (Face, Sage, Wheelman, Techie*)
Basically, every character selects one combat and one non-combat role. Combat roles grant combat-related powers, and non-combat roles non-combat related powers, obviously. Think for non-combat along the lines of utility powers, but with little to no use in combat. This would probably include a lot of "meta-game" mechanic stuff, maybe with powers like "Idea!" or "Connection" or "Short-Cut".


*) there have been several ideas on non-combat roles, and there might be some work required to distill the best ones. This list is definitely incomplete.


I think a heavy focus on grid-based combat might be inappropriate for the moder genre, so a stronger abstraction of movement and positions might be required.

A big question might be: How generic is the game to be? Default assumption would be as generic a d20 modern, but is that what WotC will be doing? It could be an "Urban Arcana" game...

EDIT:
There is another d20 Modern thread that talks about updating modern to 4E:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=218098

What should also be investigated: Can the 4E Fantasy concpet of Tiers be used in Modern? How so?
Or should it be used differently? Maybe use one tier as "Superhero" tier?

 

[The Black Kestrel]

Good replies so far. Just a reminder that this thread is for identifying problems with the current d20 Modern rules NOT about what NEW rule system (4e, Saga etc.) should replace it. Examples of mechanics from a different rule set are allowed, but discussing the feasability of using a different rule set to replace the existing d20 Modern rules is not. I'd like to keep this thread on topic

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Unified "talent power" system. Some talent powers require a kind of activation roll, but there seems to be no clear (or good) system behind them. Especially important would be to reduce the number of dice roll involved with them.

I think Defenses instead of Saves would also work better for some abilities.

I generally think a lot of talents should be made a little more interesting and sometimes more powerful.
I don't really like the Melee Smash talents, for example - they are really bland and do all just the same. They are a no-brainer to take, but don't make a character interesting)

Stealing a few talents from Star Wars SAGA sounds like a good call.