I'd say I want a 4E Greyhawk with no time jump, a Mystara that throws out Everything from Wrath of the Immortals on (so back to 1000 AC, fixing some stuff that's based too much on 20-year old pop culture, etc.), a Dragonlance which throws out all the post-War of the Lance junk and could be used either for the war or shortly thereafter, a Planescape for the new cosmology and a Spelljammer...as long as you get to cruise around space, I'm happy with anything.
What other settings should get the FR treatment?
icarusfallz
First Post
My 2 coppers:
A 100 year jump is, in my opinion, not enough for some things to change. When you have Elves that live 1000 years plus, it's hard to do enough in 100 years that they would even notice. Now, I'm not saying that I want ANY setting to jump more than 1000 years, I'm just saying that the whole timeline jump thing might be moot when you have characters that can blink and miss it.
Remember Council of Wyrms? While playing dragons, 100 years was NOTHING. The same would go for a Birthright game that featured elven kings and queens. They'd probably fail to notice most upheavals.
To note a different game system, Vampire: The Dark Ages was awesome, jumping BACKWARDS in time, and giving us a whole new perspective. Wouldn't it be great to have a setting (Mystara, perhaps) jump like 1000+ years into its PAST. Let the characters interact with some of the legends of that world. Maybe the discovery of the Hollow World.
As to Dark Sun and Planescape. I played both of them in 2e, and converted a lot of stuff for them into 3e. I love both of these settings.
I disagree that Dark Sun has to be (or ever was) a PoL setting. The city states were HUGE, and there were a lot of solid trade routes between them. Shipping lanes on the sea of silt? Yeah. Now the wilderness was VERY wild, but the cities were VERY urban.
Also, Dark Sun needs a really good Psionic system, and would hve to introduce Elementalists and Templars to replace standard clerics. No Paladins, but add Gladiators. I like what others have said about Defilers, but I wonder if Warloks would work here. Maybe Warlocks could make pacts with Dragon Kings...
No Dragonborn or Tieflings, but add Muls and Half-Giants. Goliaths would totally fit into Dark Sun, as would Genasi. These two new races would appease those who think that the setting would REQUIRE new stuff added in to update, while keeping the flavor of the original. Also,
Planescape is another story. This setting is probably my favorite of all time. A 100 year jump in a setting where many creatures are virtually immortal? Laughable, right? Hard to do a TRADITIONAL Planescape game without the Great Wheel cosmology? Well, you haven't read Monte Cook's Beyond Countless Doorways. It CAN be done.
I loved Planescape for all of the possibilities in a game based more on ideologies and political infighting. I believe that this CAN be done in 4E, but I am the type that believes that role-playing is what you make of it. Sure, the base 4E assumption is that the core books are all rules, mostly for combat. Nothing says that settings can't include huge amounts of flavor and RP material, though. This is what would make Planescape (and Dark Sun) shine.
The Blood War was cool in 2E, but really, the newness of Demons hating EVERYTHING, and Devils being "So Damn Smooth" is WAY cooler. Having Angels that serve ALL of the gods is a great idea, too. and I'd love to see more about the Inevitables and the Incarnates.
Fianlly, the new cosmology would keep Planescape from EVER being limited. No longewr are there just nine (albeit infinite) planes, but you could have all new planes. They could be discovered by the PCs. My main problem with Planescape was that it all seemed mapped out. Imagine a PoL type campaign where Sigil is your main Point of Light, with the PCs acting as planer explorers.
I love the potential.
A 100 year jump is, in my opinion, not enough for some things to change. When you have Elves that live 1000 years plus, it's hard to do enough in 100 years that they would even notice. Now, I'm not saying that I want ANY setting to jump more than 1000 years, I'm just saying that the whole timeline jump thing might be moot when you have characters that can blink and miss it.
Remember Council of Wyrms? While playing dragons, 100 years was NOTHING. The same would go for a Birthright game that featured elven kings and queens. They'd probably fail to notice most upheavals.
To note a different game system, Vampire: The Dark Ages was awesome, jumping BACKWARDS in time, and giving us a whole new perspective. Wouldn't it be great to have a setting (Mystara, perhaps) jump like 1000+ years into its PAST. Let the characters interact with some of the legends of that world. Maybe the discovery of the Hollow World.
As to Dark Sun and Planescape. I played both of them in 2e, and converted a lot of stuff for them into 3e. I love both of these settings.
I disagree that Dark Sun has to be (or ever was) a PoL setting. The city states were HUGE, and there were a lot of solid trade routes between them. Shipping lanes on the sea of silt? Yeah. Now the wilderness was VERY wild, but the cities were VERY urban.
Also, Dark Sun needs a really good Psionic system, and would hve to introduce Elementalists and Templars to replace standard clerics. No Paladins, but add Gladiators. I like what others have said about Defilers, but I wonder if Warloks would work here. Maybe Warlocks could make pacts with Dragon Kings...
No Dragonborn or Tieflings, but add Muls and Half-Giants. Goliaths would totally fit into Dark Sun, as would Genasi. These two new races would appease those who think that the setting would REQUIRE new stuff added in to update, while keeping the flavor of the original. Also,
Planescape is another story. This setting is probably my favorite of all time. A 100 year jump in a setting where many creatures are virtually immortal? Laughable, right? Hard to do a TRADITIONAL Planescape game without the Great Wheel cosmology? Well, you haven't read Monte Cook's Beyond Countless Doorways. It CAN be done.
I loved Planescape for all of the possibilities in a game based more on ideologies and political infighting. I believe that this CAN be done in 4E, but I am the type that believes that role-playing is what you make of it. Sure, the base 4E assumption is that the core books are all rules, mostly for combat. Nothing says that settings can't include huge amounts of flavor and RP material, though. This is what would make Planescape (and Dark Sun) shine.
The Blood War was cool in 2E, but really, the newness of Demons hating EVERYTHING, and Devils being "So Damn Smooth" is WAY cooler. Having Angels that serve ALL of the gods is a great idea, too. and I'd love to see more about the Inevitables and the Incarnates.
Fianlly, the new cosmology would keep Planescape from EVER being limited. No longewr are there just nine (albeit infinite) planes, but you could have all new planes. They could be discovered by the PCs. My main problem with Planescape was that it all seemed mapped out. Imagine a PoL type campaign where Sigil is your main Point of Light, with the PCs acting as planer explorers.
I love the potential.
I am inclined to agree that Dark Sun looks like a very good world in terms of the PoL concept, and personally I wouldn't mind a century time-jump to happen to it. It might let some of the original feel of the setting came back, which was partly lost as the timeline advanced.
One thing I would say, don't try reverting to the original version of a setting. People who were around first time will expect the same events to happen, and some are certainly going to feel cheated if they don't while some will feel cheated if they do. It's one thing that's making me somewhat nervous about Mongoose Traveller, since that's reverted back to 1105 and I know what's going to happen in two years if they keep the timeline intact.
And to answer further up the thread, Traveller: The New Era was incredibly divisive in the Traveller community. More so, I would say, than 4E has been in the D&D community.
One thing I would say, don't try reverting to the original version of a setting. People who were around first time will expect the same events to happen, and some are certainly going to feel cheated if they don't while some will feel cheated if they do. It's one thing that's making me somewhat nervous about Mongoose Traveller, since that's reverted back to 1105 and I know what's going to happen in two years if they keep the timeline intact.
And to answer further up the thread, Traveller: The New Era was incredibly divisive in the Traveller community. More so, I would say, than 4E has been in the D&D community.
soulcatcher78
First Post
I'd vote for Planescape (with the exploration angle) but other than that, a new setting might be in order. The new fluff that they've generated for their generic (Winterhaven, etc) setting seems to fit well together with the Core materials because it was designed specifically for that material. Shoe horning something into that mold (i.e. Greyhawk) causes more problems than it solves in the end.
Eberron was the 3.5 showcase and I think the new generic world will become the showcase for 4E.
Eberron was the 3.5 showcase and I think the new generic world will become the showcase for 4E.
JoeGKushner
First Post
Spelljammer: After another Inhuman Wars where this time it was the elves who went too far. Players get to explore various Space Hulks, act as privateers, etc...
Most other settings like Dark Sun and Dragonlance had have some many issues already via the novels that ANOTHER reset would almost be pointless.
Most other settings like Dark Sun and Dragonlance had have some many issues already via the novels that ANOTHER reset would almost be pointless.
Waylander the Slayer
Explorer
If a setting has been "milked dry" why work with setting and try to rehash/retrofit it than come up with something new? For that matter, why try to retrofit it with elements that have never been part of the canon (which tends to be awkward and non sensical for the most part) when those elements can be done better justice by having them be part of an integral setting all it's own?
I would presume that people are "fans" of a setting due to elements that they identify with and enjoy (probably different elements for different folks, be it kender, Dark Knights, Muls, Gladiators etc.). As such, if one is to "advance" a setting, it is probably not possible to do so without impacting the cohesive whole and then the fansbase to begin with. Again, it might be a better idea and better serving the consumer if one builds on the "new elements" that one is trying to incorporate. The only loss would be that of an identifiable trade mark and the related market recognition and possible loss of sales.
The second portion of your post entails people "borrowing elements" etc. I still fail to see how this would be better served by radically changing ( I am assuming we are not talking about making a setting as it was, but rather giving it the FR treatment)a setting rather than giving them new elements in a new setting. A perfect example of this is Eberron which gave us new "reimagined" and wholesome elements to consider via a new setting. I fail to see how these elements might have been better suited or more useful if they were incorporated into a pre existant setting.
GVDammerung
First Post
I agree with the nod to Darksun and Birthright.
I could see a Spelljammer even more easily and productively, and a Mystara.
The key to the effort is appreciating what 4e brings to the table and which settings can best use what 4e brings to the table. Shoehorning 4e into a setting where the 4e elements are overly disruptive or destructive is a mistake. Hence, 4e FR was a mistake.
Darksun, Birthright, Spelljammer and Mystara could all make fair to good use of 4e elements without those elements undercutting the setting. Other old settings should be left alone.
The best idea, by far, however, is a brand new 4e specific setting.
GVDammerung
First Post
Hussar
Legend
To be honest, I can't think of a single setting that actually would benefit from such a jump in the way that FR IMNSHO needed.
No other setting has even remotely the amount of material published that FR does. Not by a long shot. You could fill a reasonably sized encyclopedia series with the amount of FR material published over the past couple of decades, even ignoring fiction. No other setting has anywhere near that amount of detail squeezing the life out it.
Ahem. Ok, maybe "squeezing the life out of it" is a poor choice of words. Let's just say that I found the FR to be so monolithic that I couldn't begin to run it.
OTOH, I could see running a Planescape campaign. More than enough freedom there. Sure, there's lots of canon, but, most of it has been out of print for a decade or more, so, who cares really? I'm not going to get fussed if the new material contradicts a book that was published three presidents ago. I simply don't care. None of the people that I play with would care either. Heck, half my group wasn't out of diapers when these books were in print.
Being forced to slave the setting to material that only a very small number of hardcore fans have even read is one of the worst things about published settings.
Times change, tastes change, let it go. Nothing stops you from playing Planescape the way it was when De Terlizzi was doing the art. But, why worry if they update and change the setting for the next generation? It doesn't change your game.
Since we've already got mention of Sigil in the 4e books, I'm thinking that PS is going to get a treatment before too long. I just hope they blend it with Spelljammer. Instead of doorways, you sail the Astral sea, battling different factions that are based on actual goals, rather than artificial alignment restrictions.
No other setting has even remotely the amount of material published that FR does. Not by a long shot. You could fill a reasonably sized encyclopedia series with the amount of FR material published over the past couple of decades, even ignoring fiction. No other setting has anywhere near that amount of detail squeezing the life out it.
Ahem. Ok, maybe "squeezing the life out of it" is a poor choice of words. Let's just say that I found the FR to be so monolithic that I couldn't begin to run it.
OTOH, I could see running a Planescape campaign. More than enough freedom there. Sure, there's lots of canon, but, most of it has been out of print for a decade or more, so, who cares really? I'm not going to get fussed if the new material contradicts a book that was published three presidents ago. I simply don't care. None of the people that I play with would care either. Heck, half my group wasn't out of diapers when these books were in print.
Being forced to slave the setting to material that only a very small number of hardcore fans have even read is one of the worst things about published settings.
Times change, tastes change, let it go. Nothing stops you from playing Planescape the way it was when De Terlizzi was doing the art. But, why worry if they update and change the setting for the next generation? It doesn't change your game.
Since we've already got mention of Sigil in the 4e books, I'm thinking that PS is going to get a treatment before too long. I just hope they blend it with Spelljammer. Instead of doorways, you sail the Astral sea, battling different factions that are based on actual goals, rather than artificial alignment restrictions.
