What Outsider abilities do plane touched get?

[Prism]

The creature description should tell you exactly what racial traits the character possesses. For instance, the racial traits for aasimar are explicitly listed, so aasimar characters get no more and no less than what is listed.

The monster manual doesn't list all the abilities in the creature description

The sample gargoyle listed does not mention the fact that all monstrous humanoids can use simple weapons neither in the stat block nor the gargoyles as characters section. I guess they felt it wasn't required to list every ability again when it is already described in the appendix under type

EDIT: added hound archon example

Actually a better example is probably hound archon since its an outsider and uses its martial weapon proficiency in the stat block. In the section under hound archons as characters it makes no mention of the martial weapon proficiency nor the fact it has outsider traits of any type - yet obviously it does. I can see no reason why the same doesn't apply to planetouched

 

[Diirk]

Neither the Aasimar, nor the Tiefling lists "Outsider Traits" in their special qualities list. Therefore, they do not get outsider traits. It tells you very explicitly how to create a Tiefling or Aasimar. If it doesn't list an ability, they don't get it. Plain and simple.

Guess what, the Astral Deva doesn't either. Yet somehow the game designers made the huge mistake of not calculating the -4 nonproficiency penalty into its attack routine with its mace. Or maybe its just that as a member of the Outsider type, it gets those traits inherently without it needing to be explicitly spelled out...

Yep, by the RAW they get the free proficiencies.

It's perfectly reasonable to house rule otherwise, however, and I'd be tempted to do so.

I'm not quite sure why you and others feel its so overpowered that they can use a few extra weapons. I mean, look at what you get for LA +1... planetouched are weak enough already compared to most of the other LA +1 races out there. And the genasai... heh. About the best benefit of martial weapon proficiency is that a Planetouched/Genasai Wizard 5 can go straight into Eldritch Knight without picking up a level in fighter/paladin. Which isn't really that huge, considering that they'll still be the same effective level as the race with no LA, and they'll have less HP, skills, etc.

Admittedly maybe planetouched/genasai getting martial weapon proficiency might not have been a design decision, but just a side effect, however I don't think its a bad thing at all. Now if you want to look at real 'oopsies', how about the fact that Warforged, as medium constructs, get +20 bonus hp ? They were very careful about explicitly revoking alot of the construct traits, but unfortunately missed that one

 

[Infiniti2000]

The monster manual doesn't list all the abilities in the creature description

What does that mean? Why list any at all then?

The sample gargoyle listed does not mention the fact that all monstrous humanoids can use simple weapons neither in the stat block nor the gargoyles as characters section. I guess they felt it wasn't required to list every ability again when it is already described in the appendix under type

But, they list some, like darkvision. Why list darkvision at all then?

The point is that the Outsider entry says "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)." Well, guess what? For an aasimar, it lists the traits -- i.e. it's otherwise noted. And, those traits do not include martial weapon or armor proficiencies.

As for the gargoyle, the same thing holds. It gets no proficiencies unless it takes a class with proficiencies. Note how specific the description is on what the monstrous humanoid levels provide.

 

[Prism]

What does that mean? Why list any at all then?

But, they list some, like darkvision. Why list darkvision at all then?

I have no idea why they list darkvision 60' in both the stat block and also the section under xxx as characters - completely redundant really since unless otherwise specified all outsiders have 60' darkvision

The point is that the Outsider entry says "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)." Well, guess what? For an aasimar, it lists the traits -- i.e. it's otherwise noted. And, those traits do not include martial weapon or armor proficiencies.

Well I wouldn't say that not listing something is the same as 'otherwise noted'. If that was the case then not a single outsider would get martial weapon proficiency as not a single one lists it under their description

As for the gargoyle, the same thing holds. It gets no proficiencies unless it takes a class with proficiencies. Note how specific the description is on what the monstrous humanoid levels provide.

All monstrous humaniods are proficient with all simple weapons
Yet the gargoyle does not mention this. So are you saying that gargoyles don't get simple weapon proficiency unless it takes a class?

I have added maybe a slightly more relevant example of a hound archon to my earlier post while you typed yours

 

[Diirk]

The point is that the Outsider entry says "An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry)." Well, guess what? For an aasimar, it lists the traits -- i.e. it's otherwise noted. And, those traits do not include martial weapon or armor proficiencies.

As for the gargoyle, the same thing holds. It gets no proficiencies unless it takes a class with proficiencies. Note how specific the description is on what the monstrous humanoid levels provide.

Actually 'unless otherwise noted' would tend to imply that a creature only wouldn't gain those traits if it specifically said it didn't gain those traits. Perhaps you'd care to address for example, the Astral Deva? It's creature description makes absolutely no mention of either outsider traits, or any sort of proficiencies. Would you impose a -4 non proficiency penalty on its attacks? If not, why not? Whats the difference between an Astral Deva and any other creature that doesn't explicitly mention its traits?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Actually 'unless otherwise noted' would tend to imply that a creature only wouldn't gain those traits if it specifically said it didn't gain those traits. Perhaps you'd care to address for example, the Astral Deva? It's creature description makes absolutely no mention of either outsider traits, or any sort of proficiencies. Would you impose a -4 non proficiency penalty on its attacks? If not, why not? Whats the difference between an Astral Deva and any other creature that doesn't explicitly mention its traits?

There's a huge difference when creating an astral deva character. Since there is no "astral deva as characters" section, then nothing is otherwise noted. Therefore, astral devas get the proficiencies.

The same thing applies to hound archons. A hound archon without classes has outsider proficiencies. A hound archon with classes (i.e. as a character), has the proficiencies based on what classes it takes.

Fwiw, I'd tend to agree with you guys more if you stated that races gain the listed proficiencies if they have racial HD. This would allow hound archon sorcerers to be proficient with a greatsword, but not aasimar sorcerers.

 

[Prism]

There's a huge difference when creating an astral deva character. Since there is no "astral deva as characters" section, then nothing is otherwise noted. Therefore, astral devas get the proficiencies.

The same thing applies to hound archons. A hound archon without classes has outsider proficiencies. A hound archon with classes (i.e. as a character), has the proficiencies based on what classes it takes.

In the hound archon character section it makes no mention of weapon, armour proficiencies or the fact that outsiders do not need to sleep or eat. It does however mention things like skill points, racial hit dice and darkvision. I simply believe that this list is not complete and to get other abilites you still need to refer to the type classification

For me to accept your point of view I would have to believe that upon gaining a character class the hound archon losses its weapon proficiencies including the ability to use its greatsword, and also suddenly must begin to eat and sleep.

The same logic must apply to planetouched

Fwiw, I'd tend to agree with you guys more if you stated that races gain the listed proficiencies if they have racial HD. This would allow hound archon sorcerers to be proficient with a greatsword, but not aasimar sorcerers.

This would make a reasonable house rule if you felt that martial weapon prof was too good an ability, but IMO this wouldn't be RAW either

 

[Diirk]

Fwiw, I'd tend to agree with you guys more if you stated that races gain the listed proficiencies if they have racial HD. This would allow hound archon sorcerers to be proficient with a greatsword, but not aasimar sorcerers.

Ah yes, the magical (or is that mythical?) 'you only get type traits if you have racial HD' rule. I'd be interested in a page reference to this rule, because boy, does it ever screw over warforged !

 

[TheEvil]

There's a huge difference when creating an astral deva character. Since there is no "astral deva as characters" section, then nothing is otherwise noted. Therefore, astral devas get the proficiencies.

The same thing applies to hound archons. A hound archon without classes has outsider proficiencies. A hound archon with classes (i.e. as a character), has the proficiencies based on what classes it takes.

Fwiw, I'd tend to agree with you guys more if you stated that races gain the listed proficiencies if they have racial HD. This would allow hound archon sorcerers to be proficient with a greatsword, but not aasimar sorcerers.

The thing is, the description in the SRD specifically breaks out the different abilities into Features and Traits. Your argument seems to assume that this was done for no reason whatsoever. Which may be the case. This does weaken your argument that the exclusion from the stat information of specific monsters means they don't get it. Either the writers are incompetent or they are not, and it is poor form to say they are competent when it supports your argument, and call them incompetent when it dooes't.

 

[Diirk]

As an aside, notice the difference between the humanoid type: "Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class." and the outsider type: "Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry." ?