What Outsider abilities do plane touched get?

[kayn99]

outsider is a type, not a subtype.

Native is a subtype that is placed only on outsiders. It lists all differences here.

Why would you assume that there are other differences not listed? Why wouldnt they be listed under the appropriate section?


Last I checked living construct lists all differences from a normal construct. At least last time I looked in the eberron campaign setting book. It is 'much' more complex than a simple 'native' subtype however.

Sorry about the Typo about the subtype and type. What I am saying is that looking at the planettouched in the MM1 and reading the types and subtypes in the MMIII. I do not thing that the planet touch (native) should recieve the all the extra bonuses of the outsider type. I also realize that there are other native outsider types that do get some of the bonus of the outsider type, but they are much higher ecl monsters. I also guess I am rambling now...

Kayn

 

[TheEvil]

Okay, turn this around - does a Dust Para-Genasi rogue have proficiency in light armor? The "entry" for this race doesn't list him in armor, so he's not proficient in it. Do his class abilities override this attribute of the racial description? If it does, why are weapons treated differently?

If I am the DM, I can apply common sense. The Dust Para-Genasi rogue has rogue armor and weapon proficiencies - because it does not appear to me like the weapon proficiencies were meant to override things like class abilities. Sometimes you have to view the details concerning the traits of particular creatures with an eye towards more than a strict reading of the text and get at what you believe is the reasonable interpretation. Would you rule that a hell hound was proficient with the spear?

Actually, since there is no entry to speak of, one is forced to go straight to the Outsider entry. You really haven't answered my question except to basically say 'Because it doesn't make sense to me', which isn't very convincing. Since the Features have the look of being class/hit dice related, and the Traits all seem to be racial, it makes more sense, organizationally speaking, that the planetouched get simple and martial weapon proficiencies. Why would the writers organize it that way if they didn't mean it that way? As far as the hell hound with a spear, show me a hell hound with opposible thumbs and I will at that point begin to ponder the question.

 

[Diirk]

Okay, turn this around - does a Dust Para-Genasi rogue have proficiency in light armor? The "entry" for this race doesn't list him in armor, so he's not proficient in it. Do his class abilities override this attribute of the racial description? If it does, why are weapons treated differently?

Yes, because the rogue class grants him light armour use. Class proficincies however don't override racial descriptions as your first question there seems to suggest. They add to them. So for example an Aasimar monk gets simple and martial weapons from his outsider type, and he gets monk weapons from his monk class. So can use all simple and martial weapons, and some exotic weapons with no non-proficiency penalty.

So your example... the entry for this race doesn't wear light armour, so his race doesn't inherently have light armour proficiency. But nothings stopping him learning it later.

Seems straight forward to me.

 

[red eyed antipaladin]

Okay, on a related note, how would these two lines interact for a human/elf/dwarf/etc (humanoid) rogue:

From the Rogue's Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

From the Humanoid type: Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

Note that only armor proficiency is determined by class, not shield proficiency. Shield proficiency is determined by whether they are proficient with any form of armor (which a rogue is). Thus, by the same interpretation as "Aasimon have Martial Weapons Proficiency", a standard PC rogue is proficient with shields, since they are proficient with a form of armor.

Similarly, any humanoid character who nomally gains no armor proficiencies (monk, sorcerer, wizard) would get shield proficiency for free if they took the Armor Proficiency (light) feat.

 

[TheEvil]

Okay, on a related note, how would these two lines interact for a human/elf/dwarf/etc (humanoid) rogue:

From the Rogue's Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

From the Humanoid type: Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.

Note that only armor proficiency is determined by class, not shield proficiency. Shield proficiency is determined by whether they are proficient with any form of armor (which a rogue is). Thus, by the same interpretation as "Aasimar have Martial Weapons Proficiency", a standard PC rogue is proficient with shields, since they are proficient with a form of armor.

Similarly, any humanoid character who nomally gains no armor proficiencies (monk, sorcerer, wizard) would get shield proficiency for free if they took the Armor Proficiency (light) feat.

I would say that only armor use granted by Trait, not class would unlock this, which is also what seems to be implied by the text.

 

[Storm Raven]

I would say that only armor use granted by Trait, not class would unlock this, which is also what seems to be implied by the text.

But, according to your previous statements, this is wrong because it doesn't say that armor use granted by a trait is required to provide this. Intent is unimportant. Since your are just doing a mechanical reading of the text, dwarven rogues, for example, would be proficienct with shields.

Unless you go with a common sense view of what should be granted, in which case, you can rule that hell hounds don't have weapon proficiencies, dwarven rogues are limited to those weapon and armor proficiencies his class provides, and dust para-genasi are too.

The problem you are running in to is that the rules for outsiders weren't really intended to provide for PC type individuals who have no racial hit dice. They were intended to describe how to construct devas and the like. As a rule of thumb, I rule that unless you have racial hit dice, you generally don't get things like racial armor or weapon proficiencies, unless the racial description makes it real clear that it was intended that you do. The generic "outsider" description isn't a real clear announcement of intent on this score.

 

[Storm Raven]

As far as the hell hound with a spear, show me a hell hound with opposible thumbs and I will at that point begin to ponder the question.

Opposable thumbs are not required. If all we are doing is applying the raw text, then hell hounds must be proficient with spears (and a whole bunch of other weapons). The silliness of the idea is beside the point. The entry says "outsiders get these weapon proficiencies unless otherwise noted", so by your interpretation of the rules, the hell hound must get them.

 

[glass]

Note that only armor proficiency is determined by class, not shield proficiency.

Shields are armour. See them listed right there on the armour table?


glass.

 

[glass]

Opposable thumbs are not required. If all we are doing is applying the raw text, then hell hounds mud be proficient with spears (and a whole bunch of other weapons). The silliness of the idea is beside the point. The entry says "outsiders get these weapon proficiencies unless otherwise noted", so by your interpretation of the rules, the hell hound must get them.

And they do. The fact that they are unlikely to use them in their native form is irrelevant.


glass.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And they do. The fact that they are unlikely to use them in their native form is irrelevant.

If the hell hound were polymorphed into a human, it would lose the racial proficiencies, right? So, as a human he would get -4 with a greatsword. As a hell hound, he could use it without penalty.