What Outsider abilities do plane touched get?

[glass]

If you mechanically read the "outsider" template and apply it to the hell hound without using your brain in the process, you might come to this conclusion. I, on the other hand, prefer a DM with a modicum of common sense.

Ousider is a type, not a template.

Also, neither you nor I are DMing now, so how much 'common sense' we might use is irrelevant to debating the RAW. So lay of the ad hominems please.


glass.

 

[glass]

Shield proficiency is different from the various armor proficiencies, see them listed separately in the feats table?

Heavy, medium & light armour proficiencies are also listed seperately. Which of those isn't an armour proficiency?


glass.

 

[Nail]

That sounds like it loses its bonuses from the 1hd (generally an npc class hd), and not the racial stuff.

Otherwise the human, who is listed with a few different npc classes, would lose his bonus feat for being a human ....

Ooooh. Good one.

 

[Dracomeander]

Because I'm looking at the rules concerning creatures with 1 Hit Die or less, and since weapon and armor proficiencies fall into the category of "feats", they are replaced by the feats and class abilities of a 1st level character of the appropriate class. From the SRD:

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

I have to disagree with your interpretation.

Features and Traits are separated specifically for the reason of determining what gets changed or replaced when a creature is advanced or replaces racial HD with class levels.

Features of a creature type are the parameters that get changed when a creature is advanced or when racial HD are replaced with class levels. According to the DMG, I could create an Astral Deva as a PC with 12 levels of wizard and no racial HD.

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels, such as a gargoyle, a PC (as an exceptional individual) can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

I realize that is an optional rule but it does point out that the debate applies to all creatures not just those that don't have racial HD.

The Features of a creature type are what are changed. The Traits are considered a bonus for being that creature type. Bonuses apply no matter what class the creature desires to learn.

The Humanoid type is different due to that one keyword in its description - OR. And Humans would still retain their bonus skill points and bonus feat as those are bonuses over and above class features or racial HD.

 

[TheEvil]

For what it is worth, the abilities classes get are called Features in the classes section of the SRD. This would seem to support outsiders lossing features if they don't have racial hit dice - 'levels' in the Outsider class, if you will. Has anyone seen Traits used in text anywhere else? I don't have my PHB on me and the SRD doesn't seem to use the term that I can find except under types. That said, it seems to me that if it isn't a feature, you wouldn't lose it.

To answer the 'common sense' argument: Would you rule that a player who made an elf PC whose backstory was that he grew up as a street urchin in a human city lost their automatic elven proficiency with bows and swords?

 

[Storm Raven]

So lay of the ad hominems please.

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Storm Raven]

To answer the 'common sense' argument: Would you rule that a player who made an elf PC whose backstory was that he grew up as a street urchin in a human city lost their automatic elven proficiency with bows and swords?

That's easy: yes.

 

[IcyCool]

Heavy, medium & light armour proficiencies are also listed seperately. Which of those isn't an armour proficieny?


glass.

All of those are armor proficiencies. Shield proficiencies aren't armor proficiencies. You can tell, because they don't have the word "armor" in them.

 

[Storm Raven]

Heavy, medium & light armour proficiencies are also listed seperately. Which of those isn't an armour proficieny?

What kind of bonus to shields provide to a creature's AC?

 

[TheEvil]

What kind of bonus to shields provide to a creature's AC?

Shield, as does the Shield spell in 3.5.