D&D 3E/3.5 What parts of 4E should I bring to 3.5?

[Achan hiArusa]

I've run the solo rules in three different fights. The first was the LJ post labeled "the fun fight". I think I may have toned down the save bonuses to +2, you can check my math. But it ran really, really well. After fighting a boss in 4e, I think x5 hp works better in 3e. I had forgotten that players needed a light slashing or piercing weapon to cut out of the creatures belly.

In the fight I had a Barbarian, a Ranger, a Warlord, a Crusader, a Warlock, a Wizard, and a Modern day gunslinger (Fast/Gunslinger). APL was 7th. The barbarian and the Crusader took turns getting eaten by the Sea Serpent. The crusader was our main DPS character and he exploded out of the Serpent's stomach at one time. It had enough hit points to soak it and keep fighting.

The second fight was with a Gargantuan Spider Boss and it ran okay, but I discovered that two solo fights a session was a bit much.

The third fight was with a Bone Devil Solo with a dancing Cat O'Nine Tails which allowed me to prevent cheese on the part of the players (the paladin grappled the Devil so I let the whip dance on its own and linked its hp to the devil's but I made sure that it only attacked when the Devil could not). We had a Paladin, a wizard, a gunslinger, and another NPC paladin in the party. I did have a problem in that it couldn't hit the Paladin, but I used its summoning to summon some 1 hit point minions that self destructed for 2d6+6 damage and had it kill its own minions.

The best part I've seen is that the creature is beatable and the combats last long enough for everyone to be involved. And its near impossible for a DPS character to take it out in the first round.

Also I ran an elite with the first party with about 20 minions (it was a bandit party) and it ran okay, nothing remarkable about it, except they said the solo was tough. They liked being able to slash through the minions with ease.

 

[Edheldur]

Nice recap and explanation, Achan. However, I'm still not sure about the bonuses to AC and saving throws -particularly the +5 bonus to for a solo monster-. I really like the idea of a monster that can keep fighting for a long time, but can be hurt by the PCs.

I'll definitely try to use your elite and solo ideas on my next games and see how it goes.

 

[Runestar]

Are you sure the concept of solos is viable in 3e, with its myriad array of battlefield control spells that can all but shut down the entire battlefield with a single application?

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Are you sure the concept of solos is viable in 3e, with its myriad array of battlefield control spells that can all but shut down the entire battlefield with a single application?

As I said, its not theory. I've ran at least three solo fights. Now granted most of my players are poor optimizers and I smack people who do things like that. Give me a scenario and we can talk about it.

 

[Runestar]

Okay, how would you have your solo work around spells like

1) summon monster3 (huge fiendish centipedes excel at grappling)
2) solid fog (no save)
3) black tentacles
4) forcecage/maze/wall of force
5) debuffs like glitterdust/slow/cloud spells/exhaustion
6) reverse gravity (no save, virtual TPK if cast outdoors)
7) grease (because apparently, no monster bothers with ranks in balance)
8) web (you are still slowed and entangled on a successful save)
9) effects like stun ray/white raven hammer which auto-stun without save?
10) limited wish + save-or-die?

baring outfitting it with a blanket array of immunities?

 

[d12]

This is all great. Keep it coming.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Interesting, beyond the Shadowrun solution of kill the mage first, the mark of a good DM is to find out your player's cheesy tactics and make the useless so they have to think (so these will be situational, that's why they make DMs):

1) Generally a good damage or fear aura works against summoned monsters. The extra attacks a solo can get can also be brought to bear against them. One of my solutions against grappling was to give the monster an animated weapon (post above). Area of effect attacks that the monster has personal immunity can also work.

2) Most of the time I don't use mobile monsters so the slowing effect of solid fog is a nonissue. The only other problem would be the -2 to hit and damage which really isn't that much.

3) Incoporeality is a way out of this one. Another solution is to make sure the solo is bigger and stronger than the tentacles. Each size category is an additional +4 against grapple checks. Or I could break pattern and use a flying solo.

4) Maze could be circumvented by using a Minotaur solo (heh, heh). A solo with spell resistance could get through a forcecage or wall.

5) Glitterdust specifically can be rendered null by blindsight or blindsense. If your player's abuse exhaustion then make the solos undead or constructs which would also take care of cloud skills. Slow I would have to resort to either spell resistance or define the extra special attacks of the creature as haste effects.

6) Flying creature, reverse gravity isn't really going to bother them.

7) Give all solos ranks in balance? And amorphous creatures can't trip and fall (that's too logical to be in the rules).

8) Fire-based solo or a spider solo with movement rate in webs.

9) Undead or Construct.

10) Undead or Construct.

Spell Turning is also a wonderful thing and unlike 4e monsters can use magic items.

 

[Runestar]

What specifically gets changed when you apply the solo template to a solo monster? For instance, how much do you adjust its stats (such as AC, saves, damage etc) by?

 

[timbannock]

What specifically gets changed when you apply the solo template to a solo monster? For instance, how much do you adjust its stats (such as AC, saves, damage etc) by?

AC and saves should be more or less as they are for a normal creature.

HP should get maxed out and then doubled or tripled (or more...I've always gone with Max HP and then another x2).

Damage output shouldn't be increased by much...just make sure he's optimized for whatever role he's supposed to serve. If you start increasing damage too much, the fact that he has tons of HP means he lasts long AND deals more damage, which could lead to PCs dropping harder and faster.

So yeah, all I really do is amp up the HPs, optimize some stuff here and there, and (most fun of all), give them a suite of attacks or powers that change up how the PCs have to fight them over the course of the combat. Toss a status condition onto their attack (w/ an appropriate save to negate it, of course), and maybe turn one of their weaker attacks/spells into something they can do in place of an Attack of Opportunity or as a swift/immediate action, but only once or twice during the encounter.

 

[Runestar]

The part about increasing hp bugs me. Won't this just encourage players to further rely on save-or-die/suck spells, which operate independently of hp (and unlike 4e, are a dime-a-dozen in 3e)? Or are they banned/nerfed in your games?