D&D 5E What should an official Indian subcontinent inspired setting have?

[Malmuria]

I find this "only X is allowed to write about X" so toxic. Especially when it comes to history and mythology where only education really matters and not your place of birth and because the lines are most of the time drawn arbitarily as you can't even draw a clear line from todays countrys to history (Is someone from Tamil Nadu allowed to write about mythology from Gujarat just because both are in India (country) now even though those places are nearly a thousand miles apart and have not been in the same country for most of history, including the era you draw material from).

Well, for a project like this, being South Asian wouldn't be the only requirement. They would still need to do research, know how to write for RPGs, be a good editor, etc.

Representation brings three things (at least)

1. RPGs are still a very white, male, US-centric field. To some degree, this lack of representation reflects societal structures that privilege some people over others. The hobby as a whole would benefit from giving more chances and employment to people from a more diverse array of groups, and should be conscious of how it can work against structural and individual prejudice.

2. Not all knowledge is book knowledge. Lived experience adds a tremendous amount of depth, especially to creative endeavors. What's it like to walk down a street in your fantasy South Asia? Quick, what's the name of the paan seller on the street? Do the characters join the street adda to hear the latest rumors? There are certain small details that if you get 'wrong' as an author then you lose credibility among those who know.

3. Cultural sensitivity. Per my earlier example, if a South Asian setting started going on about "thugee" cults as a villain or doing other Indian Jones-S, I'm out. There are many orientalizing gestures like that that people who are not connected to a given culture tend to continually make (granted, non-minority authors could educate themselves on what sorts of tropes/imagery/etc to not use, but they seem to continually get this wrong). But there are more dimensions to this than just the US one. For example, Hindu nationalists in India have a very particular and very exclusive understanding of both religion and what "India" is or should be, and if I were making a SA setting, I would want it to be at least subtly critical of that homogenous understanding of identity. On the other hand, you don't want to offend the many (hundreds of millions) people who don't politicize their religious identity in that particular way. Finally, if you do raise the ire of said Hindu nationalists as a publisher, they will come after you hard. I've seen this happen in non-rpg contexts and it is not pretty.

 

[MGibster]

Not all knowledge is book knowledge. Lived experience adds a tremendous amount of depth, especially to creative endeavors. What's it like to walk down a street in your fantasy South Asia? Quick, what's the name of the paan seller on the street? Do the characters join the street adda to hear the latest rumors? There are certain small details that if you get 'wrong' as an author then you lose credibility among those who know.

What contemporary person in 2022 has the same lived experience of people from 1066 CE England, Varanasi in 800 BCE, or Rome in 33 CE? I'm pretty familiar with the small details of life in the United States right now but that doesn't make me familiar with life in 1920s Arkansas.

 

[Malmuria]

What contemporary person in 2022 has the same lived experience of people from 1066 CE England, Varanasi in 800 BCE, or Rome in 33 CE? I'm pretty familiar with the small details of life in the United States right now but that doesn't make me familiar with life in 1920s Arkansas.

See my original point:

Well, for a project like this, being South Asian wouldn't be the only requirement. They would still need to do research, know how to write for RPGs, be a good editor, etc.

If someone were to write an rpg setting based in appalachia in the early twentieth century, for example, they would still need to do some research even if they are from there. But they would have access to cultural knowledge that would make that process easier. They would be able to come up with names for npcs. They could think of figures in their own life, grandparents for example, to use as inspiration. They would have really fundamental understanding of the geography and topography, flora, fauna, and weather; not just what it is, but what it feels like, how to evoke it. And, they would have access to different sorts of cultural memory: slang, family stories, music, etc.

The cultural memory that other people grow up immersed in can be researched and acquired. You can learn languages, listen to stories, read literature and history. I know people who have PhDs in South Asian literature or history who are not from South Asia but have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of their area of focus. But then, they've spent the better part of their life devoting themselves to study, and I'm not sure that's in the scope of most rpg producers. If an rpg producer wanted to hire who had someone of that level of knowledge, whether they were ethnically South Asian or not, that would be great! and I think do a great service to the end product. Though, my other points, especially (1) above, still stand. And potentially (3), though I think/hope scholars are more aware today about the problematics of appropriation.

 

[Ixal]

See my original point:


If someone were to write an rpg setting based in appalachia in the early twentieth century, for example, they would still need to do some research even if they are from there. But they would have access to cultural knowledge that would make that process easier. They would be able to come up with names for npcs. They could think of figures in their own life, grandparents for example, to use as inspiration. They would have really fundamental understanding of the geography and topography, flora, fauna, and weather; not just what it is, but what it feels like, how to evoke it. And, they would have access to different sorts of cultural memory: slang, family stories, music, etc.

The cultural memory that other people grow up immersed in can be researched and acquired. You can learn languages, listen to stories, read literature and history. I know people who have PhDs in South Asian literature or history who are not from South Asia but have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of their area of focus. But then, they've spent the better part of their life devoting themselves to study, and I'm not sure that's in the scope of most rpg producers. If an rpg producer wanted to hire who had someone of that level of knowledge, whether they were ethnically South Asian or not, that would be great! and I think do a great service to the end product. Though, my other points, especially (1) above, still stand. And potentially (3), though I think/hope scholars are more aware today about the problematics of appropriation.

So when you need to do research anyway, why does it matter where they were born?
You vastly overestimate cultural memory. Just like anyone alive today have no idea how life was several centuries ago so did their parents and grandparents. Slang, language, music even food all would be different too.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

So when you need to do research anyway, why does it matter where they were born?
You vastly overestimate cultural memory. Just like anyone alive today have no idea how life was several centuries ago so did their parents and grandparents. Slang, language, music even food all would be different too.

Not to mention when American publishers look for authors or sensitivity readers they are unlikely to scour the streets of Chennai. They’ll hire a university educated member of the diaspora and I don’t see how that gets you any more “authentic” knowledge than presuming Jeremy Crawford is an expert of the England of Edward III simply because of his ancestry.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

What contemporary person in 2022 has the same lived experience of people from 1066 CE England, Varanasi in 800 BCE, or Rome in 33 CE? I'm pretty familiar with the small details of life in the United States right now but that doesn't make me familiar with life in 1920s Arkansas.

I can tell you D&D has been making a hash of influences from medieval Europe for nearly 50 years but apparently that doesn’t matter.

 

[MGibster]

See my original point:

I did see your original point where you stressed the importance of the lived experience versus book learning. But for the vast majority of history, we only have book learning. Sadly, the life expectancy of human beings are finite and if I create a game with a setting based heavily on 14th century Paris I cannot reference any lived experience. I could reference books where those who lived that experience wrote of them. But that's just book learning. I could have my PhD in history with a specialization in medieval France, read both Latin and whatever you call Old French, and have pored over thousands upon thousands of pages of primary sources and I will never ever have that lived experience.

And the same is true of India. If I want to base a setting off Gupta Empire (320-550 CE) I cannot live that experience nor can I find someone who has lived that experience. Even to a modern India, the Gupta Empire is going to be foreign country to them because they haven't lived that experience either.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We can agree about cultural sensibility, but keeping the good sense. And we should ask different people, because two sources even living in the same city could have got radically different point of view about their own culture and society.

WotC could choose in the last moment a retcon of the setting if they add some class with special game mechanic, as the martial adepts, or the incarnum soulmelder. Dreamscarred Press had got some good ideas about that.

Hasbro could hire as outsource some Asian publisher, but let's remember they could be markets with some different preferences.

Why not to explore the most popular homebred ideas by native players?

 

[Malmuria]

So when you need to do research anyway, why does it matter where they were born?
You vastly overestimate cultural memory. Just like anyone alive today have no idea how life was several centuries ago so did their parents and grandparents. Slang, language, music even food all would be different too.

To summarize my points above 1. the RPG hobby is still a white, male, US-centric field, and should look to give opportunities to under-represented minorities. This shouldn't just be the case with 'analogue' settings, but given the history of white authors appropriating and profiting off the cultures of others, it should be a consideration (though unclear if non-wotc rpgs really make money). 2. the cultural memory/lived experience point. In terms of cultural memory, that also has to do with the way people are inculcated into literary imaginaries at a young age; and 3. cultural sensitivity, since White (and male and hetero and able-bodied) authors tend to not be cognizant of when they are using offensive tropes, or the way different things might be offensive to different groups (in the US vs in Pakistan vs in India, etc).

To give one example, I remember reading the 2e Planescape supplement "On Hallowed Ground" as a kid. Part of the premise involves fitting real-world religions into the great wheel cosmology...and, it's an awkward fit all around. I remember, even then, that Shiva was NE and located in the negative energy place because he is the "god of destruction." So then followers of Shiva are neutral evil? But this is a complete misinterpretation of that god's role in hinduism, and the role that "destruction" plays in sustaining life. I wouldn't say I'm offended by it, because whatever; it's more an eyeroll and a loss of credibility (and overall I love Colin McCombs' work for PS).

 

[Weiley31]

I can still have my Pulpy/Pulp Heroic Bollywood right?

Cuz ya gotta have your big musical dance off when facing against Cthullhu or the Rakshasa Maharaja BBEG at the end of the campaign.