What should WOTC do about Golden Wyvern Adept? (Keep Friendly)

[Hussar]

For the pro-GWA side, can you explain why you don't like some of the ideas like a side bar. How does explaining the tradition in maybe just as many words as it would be if it was fully integrated but in a side bar, while giving the feat a more utilitarian name with a note towards the side bar bad.

I don't remember and anti-GWA people having a problem with the compromise solutions but if any of them do why would you have a problem with it.

I could live with a side bar, but, then, why bother? We've never had them before. There's no side bar explaining the Astral plane. No side bar explaining Invocation. No side bar for Tolkien races. Do we really need a side bar for this?

I'm not particularly opposed to it, I just don't really see the need.

 

[Cadfan]

I don't like the sidebar because its pointless.

Personally, I'm not so much "pro GWA" as I am "anti hyperventilating over nothing."

We've got six different styles of magic.

The orb is favored by the Iron Sigil and Serpent Eye traditions. Serpent Eye cabalists use orbs to focus powers of enchantment, beguiling, and ensnaring. The mages of the Iron Sigil, on the other hand, employ orbs to guard themselves with potent defenses when invoking spells of thunder or force.

The staff is best suited to the disciplines of the Hidden Flame and the Golden Wyvern. Servants of the Hidden Flame wield fierce powers of fire and radiance through their staves. Golden Wyvern initiates are battle-mages who use their staves to shape and sculpt the spells they cast.

The wand is a perennial favorite for wizards who favor accurate, damaging attacks. Emerald Frost adepts use wands to help channel powers of cold and deadly acidic magic, while Stormwalker theurges channel spells of lightning and force through their wands.

Golden Wyvern Adept
Tier: Paragon
Benefit: You can omit a number of squares from the effects of any of your area or close wizard powers. This number can’t exceed your Wisdom modifier.

So amongst other things, we have a magical tradition that focuses on using staves, and on shaping and molding magical effects. Its got to have some kind of name. Once you choose its name, you might as well use that name on feats.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

You give me examples of core class abilities and feats from previous editions, that players used constantly, with this sort of fluff attached and then we have a comparable example. Those examples cannot come from setting books either (like initiate of mystra) because those things belong there. I am talking generic D&D core rules.

Bard's Colleges (which got also in magical items)
Monk's titles and way to go up in levels (defeat a bigger monk)
Class titles for level
Druid requisite to go up in level (defeat a bigger druid)

to me this seem much more heavy

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

Err... This was already confirmed back in September. It was the first we ever heard about Golden Wyvern, in the Wizards and Wizards Implements Design and Development article. Here is the link to the article.

they also said they are not school in the traditional sense, they are group of spells that a wizard that learned magic from that tradition would be better, but can be setting specific

as for Dragonlance there you have the Order of High magic and the 3 robes order you would replace the various tradition with the 3 robe order and maybe make subtradition in them to raise the number back to 6..... (and by the way dragonlance should hevily be adapted to 4th edition)

they also said that the implements can be changed, the tradition expanded and culturally differentiated, all in all the tradition presented in the wizard implement article are the points of light tradition ready to be swapped in favor of more specific setting traditions

 

[jensun]

The biggest problem comes down to effective communication between players, many of whom have no interest whatsoever in memorizing a bunch of random crap.

So all the development blogs and playtest reports and everything else is not communicating with the players? Really, because I dont remember getting half this much information about 3e before it was produced and narely anything before 2e.

Also, your crap is someone eleses interesting. Thats it as far as the argument goes. Neither side is capable of being right as its not something you can objectively prove.

Seriously, if you don't grok the problem then just drop it because it clearly isn't an issue for you and you clearly have nothing to offer to address it.

Until you are promoted to Mod I will continue to post as I like within the rules thanks. Presenting the issue as not being a problem is as valid an argument as suggesting changes.

 

[Maggan]

Since you aren;t, now try renaming the feats your group is using and see how that goes instead.

One reason why this might not be a big thing for me, is that we are not native english speaking. We already mix the English names with Swedish names when we game (a language mix popularily called "swenglish"). So we do translations from english to swedish lots of times during a session, which means some feats are effectively already renamed.

This might also be a part of why I don't think this is a big deal; there's a lot of stuff that has to be translated anyways during play, so GWA is just a term among many.

/M

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

For the pro-GWA side, can you explain why you don't like some of the ideas like a side bar. How does explaining the tradition in maybe just as many words as it would be if it was fully integrated but in a side bar, while giving the feat a more utilitarian name with a note towards the side bar bad.

I don't remember and anti-GWA people having a problem with the compromise solutions but if any of them do why would you have a problem with it.

I can currently come up with two reasons
- People can easily miss/ignore the sidebars. If one goal of using "fluffy" names is to make people not only consider the mechanical part only, but also consider what such an ability could imply for their character as a personality, this will reduce its impact.

- You will have to come up with two names for every ability.

I like side bars for describing "behind the scene" concepts - why do we use a level only dependent bonus to most checks? How can I adjust the system from the base line given in the book?

In that case, a more attractive side bar comment might be:
"World Building Note: The default setting implies that a concpet of "Emerald Frost" academy, style or tradition exists. This might not fit into your campaign. In such a case, consider describing an alternate organisation and changing the name. Using the Points of Light approach, you could also leave the exact meaning open, and figure the details out at a later point, possibly together with a player considering picking up the feat."

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Okay, with Dragonlance, now you have Raistlin was part of the Iron Sigil Order? He spent time learning the Golden Wyvern techniques between joining the Order of the Black Robes and becoming a god? The white, red and black orders are totally stepped on by these new six wizard orders, it goes against the setting's official lore of magic during the war of the lance. Afterwards, during the age of mortals makes even less sense as the wizards do not have any orders and magic is raw again.

In planescape the factions are the key organizations and mortal orders would be meaningless, so now these wizards orders are found on EVERY single world across the planes?

In ravenloft, the orders do not even feel right theme wise. In a setting as grim and frightening as Demiplane of Dread, wizards are tied to feats called Golden Wyvern Adept? Let alone trying to find a way to make since that traditions like these exist in a place made up of the bits and pieces of kingdoms and realms belonging great forces of evil from across multiple worlds and realities. It just takes something from the themes of the setting.

Given that each of these settings differs significantly from core D&D, and requires their own setting specific rules, I dont think its a big concern.

Dragonlance wizards arent actually core wizards last time I checked, and have specific powers based off their school. You're going to need new stuff anyways, and the setting book can easily explain that the Golden Wyvern feats are tied to robe color x and renamed thus.

I personally dont even think Ravenloft works using D&D rules. The setting is supposed to be low magic and low power. Standard wizards with their easy and sure fire magic fit the mold about as much as naked howling berserkers.

And Planescape is a vast melting pot of many worlds and realities. If you cant work in something, you're intentionally being stubborn.

The name Golden Wyvern adept bothers me about as much as Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter or Melf's Acid Arrow does. Or the fact that certain races get weapon proficiencies or bonuses against other creature types, which are tied to fluff. In other words, not at all.

 

[Will]

I would vastly prefer something I've seen in 3.5e books, which is 'this organization typically teaches the following feats/spells.'

So, for example, if Golden Wyvern Adepts often learn Spellshaping, Greater Range, and Combat Casting, you have an idea of the kind of group/focus the organization has.

But maybe some other organization is focused on 'altering the nature of spells,' with Spellshaping, Elemental Substitution, and Delay Spell.

And so on.

I'd rather have the flavor use terms that are self-evident. Packaging flavor like this has the benefit of showing 'how it's done,' too.

 

[Cam Banks]

Dragonlance wizards arent actually core wizards last time I checked, and have specific powers based off their school. You're going to need new stuff anyways, and the setting book can easily explain that the Golden Wyvern feats are tied to robe color x and renamed thus.

Dragonlance wizards are core wizards. The Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class is a 10-level class they can take at their 5th character level but there is no requirement for them to take it. All they have to do is pass the Test before they cast 3rd level spells. That's an in-game event, roleplayed out. If they are invested in the Orders they can then pursue the PrC, but not having the PrC does not make you a renegade wizard.

It's the same with Knights of Solamnia. Most are fighters, fighter/nobles, or occasionally paladins or rangers. They take levels in a Knight of Solamnia prestige class to reflect a commitment to their Order.

In 4e I imagine all of this will be handled by paragon paths, and before that (at the heroic tier) by a combination of recommended feats and class powers.

My hope was that the mage traditions would be packages of suggested feats and powers, provided as an example of how a mage tradition might work. I would prefer that the feats taken by Emerald Frost mages, Golden Wyvern adepts, etc not have their names attached to them. Otherwise I'll just have to say "and White Robe mages usually take Golden Wyvern Adept even though nobody calls it that."

Dragonlance has had plenty of core revision over the last 20 years. I am not all that keen on the prospect of coming up with a Golden Wyvern tradition within the Orders of High Sorcery just because the 4e designers thought it would be a cool hook for new players and some fun IP.

Cheers,
Cam