What should WOTC do about Golden Wyvern Adept? (Keep Friendly)

[jensun]

Lets say I am reading new novels for each of these settings, and in them all, the wizards are tied to these orders. The fighters tied to specific fighting styles etc. It is a big deal.

Another huge assumption without any actual evidence.

The novels tend to go there own way and have certainly already introduced a fair few organisations. FR ones are packed with them, does that impact on your game?

 

[Najo]

In the same way they were stepped on by the appearance of such luminaries as Tenser, Bigby, Mordenkainen and Vecna?

I thought not.

We have already shown how the greyhawk spells are not the same thing as forcing wizard's magic to fit into these orders. The original specializations were more open to adapting to individual worlds and concepts than these current ones are.

I want to see one of these examples that are comparable to this.

Spell names, magic items, monsters, etc DO NOT compare.

You give me examples of core class abilities and feats from previous editions, that players used constantly, with this sort of fluff attached and then we have a comparable example. Those examples cannot come from setting books either (like initiate of mystra) because those things belong there. I am talking generic D&D core rules.

 

[rounser]

In terms of killing versimiltude its right up there with Golden Wyvern Adept and yet I have been happily able to ignore it for 20 years.

That's because it's a magic item. Monsters, spells, and magic items either get little screentime or are easily excluded and replaced. Core races, classes and feats, much less so.

 

[Najo]

Another huge assumption without any actual evidence.

The novels tend to go there own way and have certainly already introduced a fair few organisations. FR ones are packed with them, does that impact on your game?

No, because those things are released where fluff is important, in SETTING books. We just want our CORE rule books (PHB, DMG, MM) fluff nuetral as possible, thats all. We want those to be areas to build onto with out first having to clear a bunch of junk out of the way. Is that unreasonable for us to ask? An entire style of DMing and adding onto the game systems is being messed with this approach to rules they are taking this time around.

 

[Counterspin]

Feat names really don't come up at my table. I presume that these names will be used to group feats by function while still listing them in alphabetical order, and I approve of that. Even if I disliked the Gold Wyvern name, I'd never hear it, just "I'm fireballing here and excluding this, this, and this space." As for the presumption that there be an actual organization called the Golden Wyverns, it is either A) untrue, or B) will have no impact on my game because I will ignore it. I homebrew, and I don't see what anyone's problem is.

 

[jensun]

No, because those things are released where fluff is important, in SETTING books. We just want our CORE rule books (PHB, DMG, MM) fluff nuetral as possible, thats all. We want those to be areas to build onto with out first having to clear a bunch of junk out of the way. Is that unreasonable for us to ask? An entire style of DMing and adding onto the game systems is being messed with this approach to rules they are taking this time around.

It isnt unreasonable but you are starting from the assumption that fluff issues arent already included in the game. They are there, they just dont bother you because they fit in with your view on what the game is about. They may be easier to ignore (although frankly I think thats hooey) but they are there.

This is simply a clash of perceptions. You dont see this as fitting into your game, I am sure lots of people will like it. If you dont like it take it out.

 

[Epic Meepo]

The fact that Golden Wyvern is a name drawn from a school of magic based around use of the staff is not, I think, in dispute.

I sincerely hope you're wrong. If this fiasco about one feat name is any indication, the existence of an entire Golden Wyvern school of magic would likely drown this entire message board in threadcrap from now 'til 5th Edition.

_ _ _

On a related note, I must admit that I find the debate in this potentially-constructive thread becoming rather tedious. From what I can see, most posters are saying "I could go either way" or "the fluff could be retooled to make it better" or "this could make both sides happy."

But there seems to be a vocal minority more interesting in waving pro-GWA and anti-GWA flags than debating the best way to utilize fluff. I would like to pose a question to both camps in this particular group: can anything be said that would change your mind about your own position?

If the answer to that question is "no," I have a follow up question. There is no reason to believe that advocates of the opposing opinion are any easier to win over than you are. And the people in the middle have plenty of options that are neither for nor against you. So what is being accomplished by continuing to restate your argument in this thread?

 

[TwinBahamut]

Okay, with Dragonlance, now you have Raistlin was part of the Iron Sigil Order? He spent time learning the Golden Wyvern techniques between joining the Order of the Black Robes and becoming a god? The white, red and black orders are totally stepped on by these new six wizard orders, it goes against the setting's official lore of magic during the war of the lance. Afterwards, during the age of mortals makes even less sense as the wizards do not have any orders and magic is raw again.

In planescape the factions are the key organizations and mortal orders would be meaningless, so now these wizards orders are found on EVERY single world across the planes?

In ravenloft, the orders do not even feel right theme wise. In a setting as grim and frightening as Demiplane of Dread, wizards are tied to feats called Golden Wyvern Adept? Let alone trying to find a way to make since that traditions like these exist in a place made up of the bits and pieces of kingdoms and realms belonging great forces of evil from across multiple worlds and realities. It just takes something from the themes of the setting.

Lets say I am reading new novels for each of these settings, and in them all, the wizards are tied to these orders. The fighters tied to specific fighting styles etc. It is a big deal.

As has been repeated several times in this thread, there is not necessarily any such thing as "The Iron Sigil Order". Things like Golden Wyvern and Iron Sigil were described as "traditions". There is a distinct difference between traditions and organizations. If it helps any, think of the different traditions as more closely resembling the old spell schools, than the Order of the Black Robes.

Think of it this way: within the Order of the Red Robes, there are several different traditions, each championed by different particular wizards. Certain traditions, like Golden Wyvern, might be studied by all three Orders, while others, like Serpent Eye, might only be studied by the Order of Black Robes. After the end of those orders, these traditions survive, passed down through individual tutors and magic tomes.

Think of it like the various martial arts traditions of real world history. Various forms of Kung fu were started by temples and various peasant communities, but after these temples were banned from practicing martial arts, the traditions did not vanish, they were taken up by the various Triad gangs, very different groups who studied them for completely different purposes. These days, these same traditions are studied by countless people unrelated to either ancient Chinese temples or the Triad gangs.

Keep in mind, before relatively modern times, there were no schools or organizations of instruction. If you wanted to learn anything whether it was a fighting style, a craft, a form of art, or any literary pursuit, you had to go and find a person willing to tutor you. I think it helps if you think of the traditions being passed down in such an environment, rather than anachronistic things like large and elaborate universities and super-guilds.

 

[rounser]

Think of it this way: within the Order of the Red Robes, there are several different traditions, each championed by different particular wizards.

Now, that would have been a cool solution: colours. Why aren't they doing this again? Oh yeah, lawyers.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I sincerely hope you're wrong. If this fiasco about one feat name is any indication, the existence of an entire Golden Wyvern school of magic would likely drown this entire message board in threadcrap from now 'til 5th Edition.

Err... This was already confirmed back in September. It was the first we ever heard about Golden Wyvern, in the Wizards and Wizards Implements Design and Development article. Here is the link to the article.