What size creature can I be with Polymorph Any Object?

[FrankTrollman]

No, the only part that gets ignored is the limitations on what creatures and objects can be affected and what creatures and objects can be the result.

After all, if it was like polymorph in its choice of targets - it couldn't be used offensively, as Polymorph cannot target unwilling targets. And if it was "like polymorph" in its limitations on new forms - it couldn't turn people into objects - as Polymorph can't do that. Worse, it couldn't turn objects into creatures, because Polymorph has a hit die limit, and all objects have zero hit dice, and all creatures have positive non-zero hit die values. Since zero is less than all other positive numbers - objects couldn't be transformed into creatures at all.

So PAO must ignore the targetting and result limitations of Polymorph - otherwise it wouldn't work at all.

-Frank

 

[Nail]

Why, oh why, oh why did they not fix this series of spells once and for all?????!

How many editions will it take to get it right?

 

[Drasmir]

Why, oh why, oh why did they not fix this series of spells once and for all?????!

How many editions will it take to get it right?

No kidding! Polymorph has been ridiculous for a LONG time. WotC needs to have a week long meeting on these spells, figure out what they want (and what works best with the rules), and then ERRATA this once and for all!

 

[Iku Rex]

After all, if it was like polymorph in its choice of targets - it couldn't be used offensively, as Polymorph cannot target unwilling targets.

The spell description says that it can affect one "creature" (as opposed to "willing living creature"). This is a stated exception to the rules in polymorph.

And if it was "like polymorph" in its limitations on new forms - it couldn't turn people into objects - as Polymorph can't do that.

The spell description specifically says that it can turn any creature into an object. This is a stated exception to the rules in polymorph.

Worse, it couldn't turn objects into creatures, because Polymorph has a hit die limit, and all objects have zero hit dice, and all creatures have positive non-zero hit die values.

Incorrect. Objects do not have hit dice. Because of this it is self evident that the HD restriction cannot apply when you're dealing with objects on either side of the "equation".

So PAO must ignore the targetting and result limitations of Polymorph - otherwise it wouldn't work at all.

PaO only ignores the targeting and result limitations in polymorph where specifically noted. Nowhere in PaO does it say that you can change a target into an outsider (like a titan), and therefore you can't.

Due to sloppy quality control the table (shrew-manticore) remains unchanged, but like I said, IMO this is an error and overridden by the spell description. Even if you assume that they left this example in there to tell us that you can break the HD and size restrictions, there is no basis for using that to throw out the other restrictions.

 

[Iku Rex]

How many editions will it take to get it right?

How many different versions of polymorph did they publish in 3.0? 8? I wonder how many we'll get this time... (They're probably saving up the polymorph errata for some "magic supplement", like they did in 3.0 with Tome and Blood. There's nothing like making money of incompetence.)

 

[FrankTrollman]

The spell description specifically says that it can turn any creature into an object. This is a stated exception to the rules in polymorph.

And yet it doesn't state that it ignores the type restrictions - and yet it clearly must. Otherwise, since no object is within any creature type, then despite your ability to turn things into objects you'd still have a null set of objects to choose from!

So it ignores type restrictions - otherwise it can't function.

Incorrect. Objects do not have hit dice.

How many hit dice to objects have?

Zero.

Therefore PAO ignores the hit die limit, bcause Polymorph's hit die limit would not allow something with zero hit dice to be transformed into any creature.

This isn't selective - it simply has to ignore the type and hit die restrictions. And the the implied statement is:

one creature or object into another [creature or object]

When it says "another" - it is implied that the second choice comes from the same set as the first choice. That set is any creature or any nonmagical object of up to 100 cubic feet/level. So you can turn anything you transform into any other thing that you could have transformed with the spell in the first place. That's how implied objects work in English.

It does not mean

one creature or object into another [creature that you could have polymorphed it into presuming that it was a creature to begin with, or an object in any case, or just any old creature you think of if it happened to start out as an object].

That's a very complicated thought, and you can't have that be an implied object. You can only use an implied object if it was already referenced in the same lingual reference frame.

Since the only "creature or object" referenced by the spell is: "one creature or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cubic feet/level" - that's what the implied object must be.

While it is amusing to see you go through contortions to make it say something that you think is more balanced - that simply isn't what it says. Not to mention the fact that you still haven't figured out a way short of DM fiat to keep it from doing any of the most broken gimics (such as transforming dragon corpses - which are objects - into living breathing good dragons of equal size permanently).

That's what PAO really says it does. What it should do is up for debate - I personally feel that it should have a duration set based on the CR of the creatures you create with it - but that's a discussion for the house rules forum - not for here at all.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

How many hit dice to objects have?

Zero.

What's the Intelligence score of an object?

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

What's the Intelligence score of an object?

"-"

The "nonabilities" rules only applies to abilities - not hit dice, or any ephemera.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

"-"

The "nonabilities" rules only applies to abilities - not hit dice, or any ephemera.

It has hit points; it does not have hit dice.

If it had zero hit dice, it would have zero hit points.

Objects have no hit dice in the same way that they have no Intelligence score; they do not have zero.

-Hyp.

 

[FrankTrollman]

If it had zero hit dice, it would have zero hit points.

Reference? That looks made-up to me.

Things can have bonus hit points in addition to whatever they get from hit dice. Constructs, for example, would get around just fine with no hit dice (they have arbitrary hit points based on size).

Objects are just like that - additional arbitrary hit points based upon material and size - and zero hit dice. I don't see how that is a problem in any way.

-Frank