What Skill is Math!?

[NewJeffCT]

It depends on how detailed & in-depth you want the math skill to be used. I think basic math would actually be part of literacy.

In olden times, many religions were responsible for teaching the youth... so, Knowledge-Religion may work. For centuries, the Catholic Church in Europe was a center for knowledge and learning. Yes, they got the 'flat earth' and 'earth as the center of the universe' things wrong, but they did have a tradition of scholars for centuries, and even today Catholic universities in the United States Notre Dame, Georgetown and Boston College are very well respected for their academics. (PS, I am not a Catholic, just using them as an example… the Muslim church in the Middle Ages was also a center of learning as well. I just don't know as much about them.)

 

[Voadam]

"A pentagram in a magic circle has five sides because the solidity of the prime number five provides a basis of undivisible might, combined with the no weak corner points of the perfect circle . . ." Knowledge: Arcana.

"Nine is a sacred number of power, Odin hung from Yggdrasil pierced by an ash staff for nine days to gain the knowledge of death and the power of the runes . . ." Knowledge: Religion.

"Eight is the number of Chaos, there is no why behind this, it just is." Knowledge: Arcana.

What do you want the character to make skill rolls for with general math? Will intelligence checks cover it?

 

[MerakSpielman]

I agree that in a fantasy world there might be no distinction between mathematics and numerology.

Calvin (from Calvin and Hobbs) argued that math should not be taught in public schools because it is a religion. It is a faith-based system. He is given an arbitrary set of rules with which to manipulate "numbers," and has to take it on faith that these things are acutally true.

Arithmatic can be "proven" by real-world example (if you consider that good enough proof). Higher mathematics are an entirely different matter.

 

[Devilkiller]

D&D follows a default implied setting corresponding to Europe from around 500 to 1500 AD, and math simply wasn't a particularly important field of knowledge in that time period (edit - in Europe, it was pretty important elsewhere). For example, the number 0 was introduced to Europe around 1200 AD, but didn't become a common part of mathematical thinking until the 1500s, and didn't get widespread acceptance until the 1600s.

You obviously have a few ranks in Knowledge[History], but just because folks in medeival Europe didn't do much Math doesn't mean that D&D characters can't. I'm not sure that most medeival folks were very literate either, but all D&D characters except barbarians start off knowing how to read. While advanced mathematics might be best represesented by a Knowledge skill I'd think that a simple Int check would suffice for untrained characters trying to perform simple arithmetic.

Numerology is a different matter. I would probably let Knowledge [Arcana] cover it though.

 

[Aaron L]

The practical proof of low end maths tends to point to the fact that high end maths are correct as well. 2+2=4 is always true, and x+x=x*2 everywhere, ya know. High end math tends to be logic problems with symbols representing ideas and principles.


I believe it was listed as a Knowledge subset in Defenders of the Faith. For advanced math you could make it a seperate skill, but then you would have to detail solid game mechanical benefits of the skill, such as, I dunno, 5 ranks giving you a +2 synergy bonus to Divination spells DC's and checks, or something. You get the idea.

I've always liked the idea that different schools of magic were based upon different systems of castin: Divination is mainly numbers and formulae, Conjuration and Evocation rely on names and words of power, stuff like that.

 

[Umbran]

I think that knowledge of math will generally be coverd by the skill that uses the math. Only very rarely do folks learn and retain math for the sake of math. They learn it and use it because it is required to perform some task.

In other words, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) includes knowledge of the mathematics used to build buildings. Spellcraft includes the mathematics used in spell design and execution. Profession (bookkeeper) includes knowledge of the math used by accontants, etc. For the very few wo make a study of math for the sake of the math itself, there can be a Knowledge (mathematics).

 

[SkidAce]

Used to have a campaign when I was stationed in England that used Knowledge Math as a skill.

See, mathematics (and music, and language) is the secret to the universe, so higher levels of math equated to higher levels of knowable spells. Was good flavor.

Started to make a prestige class that got free meta magics at various levels, the prereq was geometry. And at higher levels Knowledge Math skill gave various bonuses. Never got that one off the ground though.

Hmm, maybe if we learn the secret maths we find out there is no diff between magic and science.........

 

[hong]

I think that knowledge of math will generally be coverd by the skill that uses the math. Only very rarely do folks learn and retain math for the sake of math. They learn it and use it because it is required to perform some task.

Umbran, meet Godfrey Harold Hardy; Hardy, this is Umbran, how are you? Well, and you? Well indeed.

 

[Umbran]

"Eight is the number of Chaos, there is no why behind this, it just is." Knowledge: Arcana.

Failed Knowledge: Arcana. If you make it, you know that "Eight is the number of Chaos due to the Law of Fives."

 

[CCamfield]

Used to have a campaign when I was stationed in England that used Knowledge Math as a skill.

See, mathematics (and music, and language) is the secret to the universe, so higher levels of math equated to higher levels of knowable spells. Was good flavor.

Ah, now that's cool.

Personally I think that if the character wants to take it, let them, and MAKE it worth their while. A Knowledge/mathematics skill would presumably cover well beyond any "common" mathematics such asarithmetic, regardless of the the general level of mathematical knowledge people have in the game world. Knowledge/math should include things like algebra and geometry. Although it might overlap with occult, I would suggest incorporating fancy past or "lost" algebra/geometry lore in the world... puzzles whose answers serve as clues to a treasure or location of a ruin, for instance.

e.g. A famous wizard and mathematician of a bygone era might have hidden some knowledge - clues to the location of a powerful magical invention - in a series of mathematical problems. He felt that someone who could solve the puzzles would be wise enough to use his invention wisely.

Or an ancient race might have been obsessed with mathematics of various sorts, and left various clues in mathematical inscriptions.

This is pretty much like Decipher Script, I guess; the skill could simply provide a synergy bonus (with 5 levels) in Decipher Script and Profession/Accounting (would you use that to detect doctored financial records?), and on its own be used to do things like count the size of an approaching enemy army or similar, which an average person would have trouble with.

edit: Knowledge of probabilities could give a synergy bonus to gambling