What Spells give the DM the most headache...

[Amill]

Supplements

Sometimes you can find some spells that don't seem all the way fully thought out in supplements. I know I got my Dm's goat with the Ghostform spell from Tome and Blood. Being able to cast spells with near impunity and then pass through the nearest wall and come back from another direction when desired...priceless. My dm let me reselect spells for my sorcerer since I said I would get rid of that one. Now to torture him with polymorph spells
My group also found the miasma spell in Masters of the Wild to be a bit annoying as well. Seems to be a death spell with no save that shuts down spellcasting as an added bonus. Great for any druid envious of other spell casters...
I'm sure the eventual 3.5 change will fix these errors though...

 

[Hjorimir]

I think one has to change their mindset to DM a high-level game. The biggest hurtle, IMO, is that distance is no longer a factor. The second is that players will use those divinations. You could look at just those two factors and, if you plan accordingly, the lion's share of your headaches go away.

I haven't read all the high-level story hours (though I have my sights on starting Wizardu's soon), but Sepulchrave's has really defined epic play for me. Regardless of the awesome power his players hold they are still very challenged with the things they deal with. It certainly doesn't involve dungeon crawling though.

As I typed that last sentence it kind of dawns on me what some DMs (note: I did not say lesser or weaker DMs) may see as the issue of high-power spells - the removal of dungeons as the de facto adventure site. Spells can bore right through a dungeon's defenses and place the PCs right at the end (though in my last game my players tried this and ended up using a Rod of Security to escape almost certain death, but I digress).

I tend to look at all adventures as dungeons. That is, a dungeon map is nothing but a flowchart of encounters (I don't know where I read that originally, but I have since found that to be a truism) and that same flowchart can be applied to any adventure: If-then-or-and, etc. You can even draw those adventures out on a 'map' that shows the flow of events that lead to subsequent encounters based on actions the players took.

 

[Felon]

If so, you need to take up your grievances with Col_Pladoh. Just about all the spells and effects mentioned so far (fly, teleport, scrying, polymorph, resurrect, instakills) have been part of AD&D since 1978. Heck, it was pretty much assumed that a high-level M-U back then would be unto a demigod.

This has the ring of what's known in the annals of critical thinking as an appeal to tradition. Maybe that wasn't the intention, but the bottom line is that we are, after all, talking about a game that's grown quite a bit since it first sprouted from its war game roots. In 1978, D&D pretty much was all about running from one combat to the next, with the occasional trap or puzzle to break up the monotony. Player characters didn't even have skills, so one can hardly blame Mr. Gygax for diminishing their value with powerful spells. D&D has a much more solid foundation today, and the bar is commensurately higher.

 

[allenw]

The drawback of Wind Walk has been the 5 rounds necessary to re- and de-vaporize; it's a tidy way of moving distance or moving through small openings, but it sure is nasty to have to spend tons of time to change form. (Rules: Who can dismiss a Wind Walk? Any recipient or only the caster?) Also, does anyone let their players move at 60mph inside a dungeon? I house-ruled that it's hard to move too fast in the dark -- trying to move at 60mph with only 60' of Darkvision to guide you is like trying to drive a car full speed down a narrow country road with only one dim headlight.

My players are just about to use Wind Walk for the first time, from a captured scroll. On the "60 mph inside a dungeon" question, apart from visibility issues, remember two words: Poor Maneuverability. At any speed over the normal 10' that Gaseous Form allows, they can't hover, move backward, reverse, or turn in place, can only turn 45% per 5' travelled, and can only angle 45% up or down. I'm ruling that for long-distance Underdark travel, their average speed is halved (to 30 mph, still quite respectable). And they'll have to slow to 10' to go under doors and the like.

 

[Falconnan]

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You know, I've never really had a problem with any particular spells. Sure, occasionally I've been caught off guard with a clever or unexpected use, but so what? That is what makes the game interesting. If I could anticipate and neutralize ahead of time everything the PCs could do, it wouldn't be very fun.

I just adapt to what gets used. I don't have a problem with it - that's probably why I think the concerns with high magic are so silly. I don't design games based on railroading. I just let the chips fall where they may. And I come up with my own world.

Thank you Altalazar. When running a particular encounter, I seriously outnumbered a second level party (they were getting cocky, and i wanted to teach them a lesson). 100 goblins had attacked said party in a small keep. The archer-type ranger shot one dead from the top (-1 hp, actually, but close enough). The wizard cast mage hand from the first floor window, yelled in Goblin "I shall control the soul of all of your dead!" and used the mage hand to cause the dead goblin to raise its sword against its fellows.
By merest coincidence, the goblin was stabilizing and coming to when his friends cut him to pieces, and the goblin army then turned and ran in fear.
The moral of the story is that the most minor of magic can have incredible circumstances. If your players are smarter than you, live with it or resign.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The archer-type ranger shot one dead from the top (-1 hp, actually, but close enough).

Actually, in this case, the difference between -1 and dead is huge.

Mage Hand affects objects. A dead goblin qualifies. An unconscious goblin doesn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Greybar]

Yeah, though grabbing the sword (an object) which would likely pull the limp limb along with it (if strapped) would. Now the weight limit on magehand would also probably kill it.

But sometimes you have to waive the rules a bit for that inventive player idea that makes it a good story!

john

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yeah, though grabbing the sword (an object) which would likely pull the limp limb along with it (if strapped) would.

If the goblin's dead, sure. If he's not - the sword is an attended object. Mage Hand only affects unattended objects.

-Hyp.

 

[Falconnan]

If the goblin's dead, sure. If he's not - the sword is an attended object. Mage Hand only affects unattended objects.

-Hyp.

Point. However, one might point out that if an unconscious character is just that-unconscious, several things apply:
1. No saves that require awareness. (Maybe a will save for certain specifics, but . . .)
2. An object in contact with a character is not automatically attended.
3. If a character is alive, but neither aware or active, then:
A. What are there effective mental ability scores?
B. If you treat them as being either 0 or non-abilities whilst asleep (for purposes of action only, excluding various checks to awaken), is it necessarily wrong to treat them as objects, on a case by case basis, at least?
See, I've played with rules lawyers, and I find it a bit constraining from the fun aspect. Not altogether horrible, but lacking the spark of pure enjoyment.
Thoughts?

 

[Hypersmurf]

1. No saves that require awareness.

Which doesn't include Mage Hand.

An unconscious creature is automatically considered "willing", but that's only important when considering spells that affect "One willing creature" or the like.

He still gets his saves against Charm Person, for example.

2. An object in contact with a character is not automatically attended.

But the sword he's holding (which he most certainly was attending until he fell unconscious!) isn't just "an object in contact".

If he's holding it, it's attended, despite his being unconscious; if he's not holding it, then it's not attended... but neither can it be used to manipulate his arm...

3. If a character is alive, but neither aware or active, then:
A. What are there effective mental ability scores?

The same as they are when he's awake. The only ability score treated otherwise is Dex, which is considered an effective 0 in a helpless creature.

-Hyp.