What super hero game is for me?

[Arashi Ravenblade]

No simple isnt really beneath me (though I do find it to be at times incomplete in some games). Im just one of those guys that while he doesnt mind making his own stuff (God knows ive done enough of it) i felt that with games Like M&M i was rebuilding it from the ground up because it didnt have half of what i was looking for (I spent forever trying to accurately recreate the Hulk but had to make my own power because no matter what i combined or trick i used within the rules nothing worked).

As for what i have found out about hero system over the past few days it sounds pretty good. And i recently found out a friend of mine i hadnt seen i awhile had an older verison of champions so i might ask if i can barrow it before spending the money. Or i might buy it off him.

Thanks for all the responses.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

First off, it depends on what d20 implementation you're talking about.

Second, it depends on how much of the HERO ruleset you're using. You throw in turn modes, acceleration/deceleration, tracking END, martial manuevers that involve calculating STR effects on damage, Adjustment Powers, and so forth, and you're way more complicated in play than default M&M2e. Fudge most of that stuff, and you're simpler than default M&M2e.

I pretty much mean HERO vs. D&D, and in both cases using all the rules. M&M is definitely simpler than either, though.

 

[buzz]

I pretty much mean HERO vs. D&D, and in both cases using all the rules. M&M is definitely simpler than either, though.

This is certainly true. I felt compelled to make the point because rules complexity varies wildly between the two guys who GM in my HERO group.

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Well,

I'd say go back to M&M 2.0 and add the Ultimate Powers book. All the detail that Champions/HERO will give you but you'll be able to play a battle out in minutes not hours.

The Ultimate Powers book is really how Powers should have been described in the main rulebook in the first place instead of the mixed bag of effect and decriptive list that was included. I'm a long time Champions player and frankly I can do everything in M&M that I could do in Champions and more. I can also keep characters and villians balanced and not have to work with any of the expectations that have crept into Champions over time (Dex's of 23 and SPD of 5 for example).

Quite frankly M&M 2.0 does everything Champions does easier, better, and faster.

Jack.

 

[buzz]

Quite frankly M&M 2.0 does everything Champions does easier, better, and faster.

If "easier, better, and faster" were the OP's requirements, I'd recommend Truth & Justice long before I'd recommend M&M.

But, he says he's played M&M, and he didn't like it. So, we move on.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Quite frankly M&M 2.0 does everything Champions does easier, better, and faster.

I'd say M&M 2.0 does almost everything Champions does, and is generally easier and faster.

Not everything. Not better.

Dang good, though!

 

[Jack of Shadows]

If "easier, better, and faster" were the OP's requirements, I'd recommend Truth & Justice long before I'd recommend M&M.

But, he says he's played M&M, and he didn't like it. So, we move on.

OK I should have said "Easier, better and faster with the same level of complexity". I was also trying to suggest that while I understand that he has tried M&M I believed that adding the Ultimate Powers book would give him the complexity he was looking for.

Now on an unrelated tangent, one system no one else has mentioned is Jeff Dee's Living Legends which is essentialy advanced Villians & Vigilantes. I haven't played it myself but from skimming through it, it also might have some of the complexity the OP is looking for.

I do have a hard time suggesting Champions to anyone because I played it for a very long time and while you can build almost any character down to perfection actually playing can be a real brutal slog. Champs gets to feel a lot like a Superhero wargame rather than a Superhero roleplaying game.

My 2 cents anyway and I know there are Champs folks who will argue it the other way. I can say one thing about Champs, Hero Games publishes support material like there is no tomorrow. I honestly don't know how they do it given the marketplace but they do.

Jack.

 

[Krolik]

Im just one of those guys that while he doesnt mind making his own stuff (God knows ive done enough of it) i felt that with games Like M&M i was rebuilding it from the ground up because it didnt have half of what i was looking for (I spent forever trying to accurately recreate the Hulk but had to make my own power because no matter what i combined or trick i used within the rules nothing worked).

Exactly what Hulk ability were you attempting to emulate that caused you so much trouble? The only non-standard ability he would seem to have is his increasing Strength over time and that would seem to be easily emulated a number of different ways in M&M. Beyond that he is really just the Hulking Brute Archetype in the back of the book.

There is a very nice Hulk write-up here.

 

[buzz]

I do have a hard time suggesting Champions to anyone because I played it for a very long time and while you can build almost any character down to perfection actually playing can be a real brutal slog. Champs gets to feel a lot like a Superhero wargame rather than a Superhero roleplaying game.

HERO has its warts, to be sure. Nonetheless, I didn't find my play of M&M (1e) to be all that less of a slog, save for the demo I played with Steve Kenson. In the demo, Kenson was playing things pretty fast-and-loose. When my group played a short campaign, we stuck to the RAW pretty closely. Combats didn't feel any faster than D&D or HERO to me. Granted, we were new to the system.

As much as I want to like M&M2e (and I do, basically), the number of bits I find almost as complicated, not complicated enough, and altogether absent or vague is enough to keep me from tossing my HERO books out the window. M&M is basically a d20 implementation of the HERO model, and since I'm happy with HERO (as far as mainstream supers RPGs go), I don't feel overly compelled to replace it with something so similar. If I want something different, I look to truly unique (and genuinely simple) games like T&J or Capes.

That said, M&M's Hero Points, Extra Effort, and Complications rock on toast. It's ahead of HERO in this regard.

Sorry, I'm drifting. It seems no SHRPG thread is immune to the M&M v. HERO battle.

 

[SWBaxter]

Now on an unrelated tangent, one system no one else has mentioned is Jeff Dee's Living Legends which is essentialy advanced Villians & Vigilantes. I haven't played it myself but from skimming through it, it also might have some of the complexity the OP is looking for.

I have played it, and it doesn't. IMHO character generation is easier than M&M (and Hero), if not as well written. It's a fun game, but not what the OP is looking for AFAICT. Hero is probably the OP's best bet.

An OOP contender could be MEGS, the ruleset Mayfair used for their DC RPG. It had a decent amount of crunch, and did an OK job of modelling a wide range of power levels.