What the heck is that?!

[Archade]

Hi all,

We had an incident in our game recently regarding a Knowledge check vs. a monster. This led to a philisophical discussion, and some good questions about identifying beasties and their abilities.

Right now, IIRC the rule to identify a creature is a Knowledge check of DC 10 + the HD of the creature. Somewhere there is also a rule of a flat DC (15 to 25?) to identify a templated creature. Not a bad way to separate player knowledge from character knowledge.

Now, the problem my player posed to me is the DC to identify a 1/2 HD cat is 10, where to identify a 11 HD elephant is 21! Never mind advanced creatures. So the system breaks down a bit on the issue of rarity vs. power.

Has anyone else thought this rule needed tweaking, and if so, how did you handle it?

Thanks, all!

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Just use DC 10 for common animals.
DC 15 for uncommon creatures.
DC 20 or 30 for really rare creatures.
For every 5 points the DC is beat give more info.

Just like it says in the knowledge skill section before it starts to talk about identifying creatures.

 

[MarkB]

The DM should always be prepared to apply modifiers to the DC depending upon circumstances, but generally no more than in the region of +/- 2-4.

And just to point out your own example, we may be reasonably familiar with elephants in the real world (though nowhere near as familiar as we are with house cats), but the average medieval character would not be - remember Sam's tall tales of the legendary 'oliphaunt' in Lord of the Rings?

Finally, these Knowledge checks are not only to identify the beast by name, but to gather at least one item of useful, accurate information about it. Just because somebody knows what an elephant is, that doesn't mean they know how strong or prehensile their trunk is, or their most common mode of attack. Feel free to give players the name of a creature on a near-miss Knowledge check, just tell them they don't know anything useful about its stats.

EDIT: I should also mention that this is an issue WotC seem to be aware of, and are addressing. Many of their new books, including the Monster Manual IV include Knowledge sidebars for specific subjects, giving specific guidance on which Knowledge skills are applicable, and what the character can expect to learn as a result of meeting particular DCs.

 

[Archade]

I have also noticed the Knowledge-specific sidebars. They are a better idea, and give lots of inspirational flavor and character to monsters, but they're unwieldy spread out through Dragon magazine and the newer monster books the way they are.

I wonder if MMIV will have sidebars for all the critters ...

 

[Gnome]

Indeed. Only the most accomplished of sages will have ever heard of dragons, too.

 

[shilsen]

Just use DC 10 for common animals.
DC 15 for uncommon creatures.
DC 20 or 30 for really rare creatures.
For every 5 points the DC is beat give more info.

Just like it says in the knowledge skill section before it starts to talk about identifying creatures.

Seconded.

 

[frankthedm]

The DM should always be prepared to apply modifiers to the DC depending upon circumstances, but generally no more than in the region of +/- 2-4.

I think the ballpark on circumstance modifiers on Knowledge checks should be a tad higher than that. Up to + / - 10 does not sound unreasonable at all and that still might not be enough for infamous / secretive critters.

Feel free to give players the name of a creature on a near-miss Knowledge check, just tell them they don't know anything useful about its stats.

That'll make them feel good about those Knowledge ranks . Another way of going about it is "You've never seen this creature before, though the log like legs and bulky body seem to indicate it would be an herbivore. The unwieldy looking tusks might indicate it is a male, if they are used for status displays, though you’ll know for sure if it turns around. Most plant eaters of this size use their bulk to crush harassers, so you can expect to be put underfoot if you annoy it.”

 

[Dross]

EDIT: I should also mention that this is an issue WotC seem to be aware of, and are addressing. Many of their new books, including the Monster Manual IV include Knowledge sidebars for specific subjects, giving specific guidance on which Knowledge skills are applicable, and what the character can expect to learn as a result of meeting particular DCs.

Something I hope that they do is go back and do for the previous MM's and other creature books and provide this type of info as a web enhancement. Not that I can see WoTC doing it mind you.

 

[Pinotage]

Now, the problem my player posed to me is the DC to identify a 1/2 HD cat is 10, where to identify a 11 HD elephant is 21! Never mind advanced creatures. So the system breaks down a bit on the issue of rarity vs. power.

Has anyone else thought this rule needed tweaking, and if so, how did you handle it?

Thanks, all!

You have to remember that in a fantasy world elephants or even cats might not be common at all. Just because in our world they are, doesn't mean characters in a fantasy world have ever seen an elephant before. Something to consider.

Pinotage

 

[Cheiromancer]

What's an "elephant"?