What the heck is "Unfun"?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What is unfun to me:

Dying _again_ just because I rolled a 1 on a saving throw that would have been a pretty good success rate again. (Cleric: Destruction: Fighter: Oh no, that's my best save! AARGH!)
Dying _again_ just because I failed a save I hadn't had a reasonable chance to succeed in the first place. (Bodak: Hello Wizard. Wizard: ARRRGH!)
Killing a BBEG _again_ with a single spell during the first round of the final encounter.

Combats in which my characters got nothing to do, because
- I fear I am running out of spells and having no meaningful alternative to do instead.
- I am out of spells and meaningful alternatives to do.
- I died in the first round due to a single stupid dice roll
- I was stunned, dazed or helpless for several rounds and no chance to get back.
- I was unable to contribute because the monsters were immune to all of my abilities and I was also not able to use any of my abilities to help my comrades.

What can be fun, despite my character not taking the spot-light or suffering from bad consequences:
- Dying near the end of an encounter, possible due to a failed save or lucky critical hit, but maybe through sheer attrition.
- Holding back after having buffed a meelee Fighter to do the work and watch him crush the opposition, partly thanks to my help
- Holding the line so that the Wizard has time to crush the opposition with a few well placed spells.

Yes, a few of these unfun things might somethings be fun. But not if they happen regularly. Some aren't even fun anymore if they happen more than, say, twice. (I am specifically looking at failed saving throws at the beginning of an encounter that lead to the character's death or uselessness for the remainder of the encounter)

And if me not liking these things mean I have a short attention span or that a game that will suit my taste more will be "video-gamey" - well, I don't care, as long as I get to have fun!

 

[FireLance]

There are as many definitions of unfun as there are styles of play.

However, I think a good principle for the design of RPGs is: the rules shouldn't get in the way of your fun. That's the DM's job.

 

[Sundragon2012]

Here's some things I find unfun:

Keeping track of arrows, every last copper piece, food and encumbrance. Being ineffective in a fight, such as a two-weapon fighter versus a high DR monster. Serious power imbalance between the PCs.

The setting flavour issue is a tricky one. While it's important to retain flavour, sometimes with a bit of tweaking you can make a concept work. For instance the warforged ninja in 7th Sea can work, imo, provided he isn't called a 'warforged' and provided he isn't called a 'ninja'.

There actually are tieflings in Conan. The wizard Tsotha from The Scarlet Citadel is a half-demon. There are also heroic knights, though nothing quite like a D&D paladin. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to have an Aquilonian cavalryman with demonic heritage, basically a tiefling paladin.

I would think that it would be important to make sure that the archers are actually able to shoot the arrows they're firing at the orcs they're trying to kill. I don't know that arrows should have the same unlimited quality as bullets in a John Woo film.

I can see not keeping track of money til the last copper, easpecially when IME characters are never quite completely out of funds.

Not really familiar with 7th sea, but that's an interesting point about the tiefling in Conan. I would think that such things have to be handled with care and good sense when it comes to frequency.



Sundragon

 

[wedgeski]

'Unfun' seems to me to have become nothing more than a projectile to lob over the wall at someone you don't agree with and want to discredit. Just one more in a long list of such words: 'railroad', 'munchkin', 'roll-player', etc.

 

[Sundragon2012]

I'm eagerly awaiting the "More Fun Monopoly" Edition, where the designers finally realized that going to jail is entirely unfun, and that paying rent on a street should be reduced to a token sum of 1$...after all, it's no fun to be ruined by a random die roll, is it?

I'm holding out for the "More Fun" version of Trivial Pursuit where even if you know nothing you still win so you can still feel good about yourself.

My son was playing the "More Fun" version of football where everyone won just by stepping onto the field.....of course he was only 6 at the time. Unfortunately, he is forced to play the "unfun" version of football where one team wins and one team loses.

Life is tough sometimes when your 9yrs old, deal with it.

I'm thinking that this is a lesson some D&D players need to learn....::ducks and runs for cover::

Sundragon

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm eagerly awaiting the "More Fun Monopoly" Edition, where the designers finally realized that going to jail is entirely unfun, and that paying rent on a street should be reduced to a token sum of 1$...after all, it's no fun to be ruined by a random die roll, is it?

Well, if they manage to create a Monopoly version that doesn't require any die rolls, I'd actually be quite interested in it.

I like strategy games that don't have any elements of chance. One of my favorite examples is Diplomacy. It's only problem is that the starting positions (i.e. the country you're playing) are not equally good.

Ah, now that was completely off-topic, I guess...

 

[StarFyre]

hmmm

I find magical immunities and DR a part of challenging planar creatures that are not supposed to be from 'our world.'

If you think of people who are religious and believe the bible, etc is all true.

Do you really think some tiny dagger you bought at a store would have a chance, no matter how strong you are, to hurt Michael the Archangel?

I believe, that if such beings did exist, they should be immune to normal weapons (ie. non magical or have a type of DR)....if this stuff is removed for instance, I have explained this to my players, that I will add it back based on the creature.

Sanjay

 

[Li Shenron]

Well, this is my list of "unfun" things then:

- playing with a rules lawyer who constantly bitches about the exact wording of a rule
- playing with someone who cares only about his PC being in the spotlight all the time, and when he's not he does his best to spoil someone else's spotlight

These first ones I'm afraid no ruleset will help getting rid of. But instead the next may be handled better at the rules level.

- buying magic items from a shopping list that contains everything even in the smallest village grocery store
- finding magic items that looks like mass-production technology: loads of +1 weapons, +1 rings of protection, +1 cloak of charisma... what about having a stamp on all the cloaks that says "Made in Thay"?
- selling magic items like they are doubled chrismas presents being returned to the shop

(you might notice I have issues with magic items... )

but also:

- checking precise areas and distances for spells and abilities, being pushed to use a battlemap
- rolling MORE than 2 dice to determine the outcome of a single action IN combat (e.g. grapple, dispelling)
- rolling LESS than 2 dice to determine the outcome of an interesting action OUT of combat (e.g. dealing with traps or diplomacy)
- still not knowing how to properly make a dragon fly or a horse carry its rider without looking up the PHB

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

I'm thinking that this is a lesson some D&D players need to learn....::ducks and runs for cover::

Sundragon

I'm going to summarize my response to the earlier parts of this by simply referring you to the dictionary. Well, a single word in the dictionary: competitive. Examine the definition of the word as it applies to sports. Got it clear in your head? Okay, now here's the tricky part - understand D&D isn't that.

As for this little closing sentiment here, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that most D&D players know life isn't fair when you're nine, having been nine already. Hell, I'll bet most of them know the bigger secret (and I'll even let you in on it) - it doesn't get any more fair at 15, or 19, or 25, or 40. Life, as it turns out, kinda sucks sometimes. For everybody. More important lessons for D&D players of all stripes include:

• Fresh air, the sun, and vegetables will not kill you at low exposures.
• D&D is not a substitute for actual life experiences.
• Your play style is not objectively better. Hell, it might not be subjectively better. But it's fun, so keep at it.
• Soap: Not just a decorative element in the shower!
• Your dice are perfectly random. Unless someone else in the group touches them.
• D&D is not, however over-burdened your 'realistic' house rules may be, life. It is thus not beholden to the Sometimes It Sucks clause.

 

[Sundragon2012]

I find magical immunities and DR a part of challenging planar creatures that are not supposed to be from 'our world.'

If you think of people who are religious and believe the bible, etc is all true.

Do you really think some tiny dagger you bought at a store would have a chance, no matter how strong you are, to hurt Michael the Archangel?

I believe, that if such beings did exist, they should be immune to normal weapons (ie. non magical or have a type of DR)....if this stuff is removed for instance, I have explained this to my players, that I will add it back based on the creature.

Sanjay

I'm so with you on this.

The very idea that someone could complain that "I felt that my character was useless because he couldn't use his sword on the demon, werewolf, vampire, angel, etc. and I think that the rules should make sure that I am relevant in every encounter no matter what" is unfortunate IMO.

There should be great challenges, challenges that player's have to rack their brains over, "oh my god my sword couldn't affect this creature, I need to research how to defeat it."
Fantasy fiction and folklore is filled with creatures that skill alone cannot defeat and aganst whom wits are greater than steel.


Sundragon