What the heck is "Unfun"?

[Grog]

It is unfortunate that WotC thinks that making the rules to allow more uber powers for characters who are already overpowered as fun, and forcing what they think what we gamers want as fun, totally disregarding those who do not want a bland generic easy uberpowered game and who thinks those types of campaigns as unfun.

And how do you know that 4E will be a "bland generic easy uberpowered game?" It seems to me that you are assuming facts not in evidence.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

And how do you know that 4E will be a "bland generic easy uberpowered game?" It seems to me that you are assuming facts not in evidence.

I can't be the only person amazed that the bulk of 4e's more strident naysayers got their PHB a year early, and that the design team produced a risk-free game despite all evidence to the contrary. Damn alternate reality time machines!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

But it's a few SECONDS worth of time spent! You can do that during another player's turn. Hell, you can do it during the time the next player is clearing his throat to announce his action!

"I fire 5 arrows at the dragon."
(On sheet labeled "Arrows fired" - "mark, mark, mark, mark, mark.")

That's just ridiculously easy.

Even a second or two can annoy if it's unnecessary. It's like having to say your name before each combat round.

Not "I fire at the dragon" but "I'm Mark. I fire at the dragon".

It takes less than a second, but it's unnecessary, and thus annoying.

 

[Zimri]

I have some question because I am trying to understand this point of view. When is it okay for character death? Is it that you hate character death in early levels and is it okay later on?

Or is is that you hate death all together?

To me I would rather lose a lower level new character to death then one I have been playing for a long time becuse as the game goes on I get more attached to my character.

Elf Witch;

First I would like to say you make me almost want to subscribe so that you could see this a sa PM and I'ld be sure it got read by you. Your posts that I have seen are usually well thought out, civil, and intelligent

As to my stance on death. Firstly no I don't hate it all together. It definately has it's place at any level. I find the game currently skewed in such a manner that outside of DM fiat or really lucky rolls mortality from levels 1 to 3 is high. Espescially for the characters I play (rogue bab little or no armor not many hp). That said if at level 1 they were to die meaningfully or heroically I wouldn't mind at all (think " I may well die on this embankment but you filthy orcs will have to get past me to invade the village" or "the plot device must be placed in blah and it will likely kill you).

I start off relatively attached and get more so as they grow usually by the time the math gets silly I'm more or less done telling their story. I am writing some fiction and in so doing have discovered I am what is refered to as a "character writer" I come up with the concept for the characters I am writing about but really "they" tell the story. Yes I realize this sounds like multiple personality disorder or mild schizophrenia.

Death at later levels tends to be more "heroic" simply as a matter of course. You are taking on higher level BBEGs and facing tougher encounters. "the lich turned his evil glare upon Ilyana and in a moment she was undone" sucks but by that time her story has likely been told, or her death was a decent culmination, and I am ready to try something else from the myriad of ideas kept bubbling on the back burner.

These are heroes having a story told about them they shouldn't die to a stray arrow from a common thief. Heck even Achilles got a good war in first before his trick ankle killed him.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have some question because I am trying to understand this point of view. When is it okay for character death? Is it that you hate character death in early levels and is it okay later on?

Or is is that you hate death all together?

To me I would rather lose a lower level new character to death then one I have been playing for a long time becuse as the game goes on I get more attached to my character.

I dislike deaths that are just a freak accident. Player Characters should die in climatic combat. There should have been some kind of "interaction" with the thing that kills you.
A trap that kills you instantly i D&D 3.x is pretty stupid. At maximum, you have 3 rolls. (Search, Disable Device, Saving Throw). There is no variation in what you can do, and there is nothing you could have done differently (aside from not at all trying to get by the trap).

In a combat, a Cleric can decide to cast Death Ward when the group notice that the enemies are level draining Vampires. Or he can try to Turn them. Or cast Holy Smite at them. He has a choice how to react and help everybody.

But exchange the Vampires with Bodaks, and suddenly he has not time to react in any way, everybody has to make his save and if he is lucky, he keeps living, if not, it is too late.
If the Bodaks would need to concentrate for one full round before they can activate their deadly power, all players have time to react and take their pick on the defense. Some will choose poorly and possibly die. Some will choose wisely and save the party's collective asses...

I know that Save or Die effects do also contribute to the "thrill" of the game. But if they become to common that they lose their meaning and just become annoying. "Oh no, I guess 17 doesn't save." "Nope. Bye bye." "Okay guys, you know: You can sell everything except my Headband of Intellect to get the money for my resurrection..." (And if there is no chance or will for ressourection: "Okay, I'll roll up a new character. Seems like we really need a Cleric, so I guess I'll skip my Swashbuckler Experiment and roll up one, okay? Level 11 like the rest, or Level 10 for the new one? Standard Wealth?")


Death, as it is in D&D, is to common. It appears it can be so common because ressourection magic is also pretty common. But the truth is, it turns character death from something tragic and something that makes you "sad" into something that is just annoying. How did Sally (in Blink/Doctor Who) put it "Sad is happy for deep people", but annoying is just annoying.

Maybe it is an artifact of the level based hit points. They are your "protection from nastiness" - as long as you do have them, you "know" that nothing bad happens. And so you do all kinds of crazy stuff and become careless, because you know it only becomes dangerous if your hitpoints go below a certain threshold. So, monsters deal more damage per round to bring you quicker there. And some abilities just bypass your "nastyness" protection, so that you are remembered that you are still playing a mortal creature, not superman.

Other games - Shadowrun for example - give you little to fully protect yourself from harm. Troll with a Konstitution of 12 and Ballistic10/Impact9 Armor? Here's a Power 6 Manabolt for you. There is always a chance that something can fill all the boxes of your condition monitor and you're done (well, nearly done. But pretty done for this fight, and if your team can't stabilize or heal you, you are really done). But it _never_ happened to my characters. And I think I saw happen only once to a fellow runner. I always know the chance is there, and I act accordingly. But the chance is rarely realized.

 

[Elf Witch]

Elf Witch;

First I would like to say you make me almost want to subscribe so that you could see this a sa PM and I'ld be sure it got read by you. Your posts that I have seen are usually well thought out, civil, and intelligent

As to my stance on death. Firstly no I don't hate it all together. It definately has it's place at any level. I find the game currently skewed in such a manner that outside of DM fiat or really lucky rolls mortality from levels 1 to 3 is high. Espescially for the characters I play (rogue bab little or no armor not many hp). That said if at level 1 they were to die meaningfully or heroically I wouldn't mind at all (think " I may well die on this embankment but you filthy orcs will have to get past me to invade the village" or "the plot device must be placed in blah and it will likely kill you).

I start off relatively attached and get more so as they grow usually by the time the math gets silly I'm more or less done telling their story. I am writing some fiction and in so doing have discovered I am what is refered to as a "character writer" I come up with the concept for the characters I am writing about but really "they" tell the story. Yes I realize this sounds like multiple personality disorder or mild schizophrenia.

Death at later levels tends to be more "heroic" simply as a matter of course. You are taking on higher level BBEGs and facing tougher encounters. "the lich turned his evil glare upon Ilyana and in a moment she was undone" sucks but by that time her story has likely been told, or her death was a decent culmination, and I am ready to try something else from the myriad of ideas kept bubbling on the back burner.

These are heroes having a story told about them they shouldn't die to a stray arrow from a common thief. Heck even Achilles got a good war in first before his trick ankle killed him.

Thank you for the nice words.

I understand what you are saying. I can understand the frustration at losing a character in the first three levels it is so easy and usually it is not from some heroic epic battle. And to make matters worse raise dead is usally out of reach for those levels.

From what I understand some of the design in 4E is going to address the issue of how fragile lower level characters are. And I think that is a good thing.

I think the spectre of death can add to the tension and drama of the game but it has to be done in a way that does not suck all the fun out of the game. And be taken out by an angry house cat as first level wizard really was not fun. Nor was playing a wizard in 2E with 1 whole hit point.

As a DM if I have NPC throw a sleep or hold spell on lower level characters I do it as away to capture them not kill them or as a way for the NPCs to escape. Also every player starts with a fate point that can be used to cheat death once no fuss no mess, you come back at 1 hit point and no loss of level.

Later as they get stronger I take the gloves off but my goal is not to kill PC but to challange them. Which means having to save against stun like spells and sometimes not often save VS death.

Now if I ever have players who really hate save VS death I will agree not to use it against them but they in turn lose access to them as well. So far that has not happened.


The one thing I can't stand though is the complaint that my character can't be 100% in every situation. There are times your PC will rock and shine away and other times it will be someone else's turn. So your spell caster is out of spells or is stuck in a dead magic zone then suck it up and try and give the fighters cover with your crossbow. Or throw a tanglefoot bag or how about aid another. Or if you are a rogue fighting undead okay so your sneak attack does not work and so you are not doing major damage but that does not mean you can't contribute you can still attack.

I have never seen that in any of my games that I have played in or DM but I sure have read enough posts on boards about it and it makes my teeth grind together.

A player in one of our games played a rogue and when we were fighting undead used his robe skill as a lasso to catch and trip up the undead it was great it was very cinematic and since most of us had failed will saves and were paralyzed he saved the entire party.

 

[Elf Witch]

I dislike deaths that are just a freak accident. Player Characters should die in climatic combat. There should have been some kind of "interaction" with the thing that kills you.
Edited out a lot of other good stuff
.

I agree with everything you said. I hate playing in a game where every freaking door is trapped with a spell guranteed if you fail to kill your rogue.

I use traps on important doors but not every trap is deadly I use a lot of alarms the worse that happens is that you have lost the element of suprise.

Now if you are breaking into a wizards lab you should expect to come across some magical traps. But doing research on the wizard will give you some clues as to what kind of spells he favors so you can get some protection from certain effects.

As for save VS death spells they are most effective when used rarely the same with scary monsters who can throw them.

I have a rule in my game though what the PCs have access to so do the NPCs if players want Vorpal swords in the game to use on NPCs they may find them in the hands of the NPCs to be used against them.

I don't like a lot of death because I have found that in high bosy count games the players stop putting any effort into their characters backgrounds or role playing because they don't see the point or just as bad they become afraid and over cautious over every decision.

I play Shadowrun and I do like the ability to try and soak the damage thrown at you. It gives you a chance to do something to stop your death. Sure you may roll all 1 and its bye bye for good for the character.

 

[Zimri]

Thank you for the nice words.

I understand what you are saying. I can understand the frustration at losing a character in the first three levels it is so easy and usually it is not from some heroic epic battle. And to make matters worse raise dead is usally out of reach for those levels.

From what I understand some of the design in 4E is going to address the issue of how fragile lower level characters are. And I think that is a good thing.

I think the spectre of death can add to the tension and drama of the game but it has to be done in a way that does not suck all the fun out of the game. And be taken out by an angry house cat as first level wizard really was not fun. Nor was playing a wizard in 2E with 1 whole hit point.

As a DM if I have NPC throw a sleep or hold spell on lower level characters I do it as away to capture them not kill them or as a way for the NPCs to escape. Also every player starts with a fate point that can be used to cheat death once no fuss no mess, you come back at 1 hit point and no loss of level.

Later as they get stronger I take the gloves off but my goal is not to kill PC but to challange them. Which means having to save against stun like spells and sometimes not often save VS death.

Now if I ever have players who really hate save VS death I will agree not to use it against them but they in turn lose access to them as well. So far that has not happened.


The one thing I can't stand though is the complaint that my character can't be 100% in every situation. There are times your PC will rock and shine away and other times it will be someone else's turn. So your spell caster is out of spells or is stuck in a dead magic zone then suck it up and try and give the fighters cover with your crossbow. Or throw a tanglefoot bag or how about aid another. Or if you are a rogue fighting undead okay so your sneak attack does not work and so you are not doing major damage but that does not mean you can't contribute you can still attack.

I have never seen that in any of my games that I have played in or DM but I sure have read enough posts on boards about it and it makes my teeth grind together.

A player in one of our games played a rogue and when we were fighting undead used his robe skill as a lasso to catch and trip up the undead it was great it was very cinematic and since most of us had failed will saves and were paralyzed he saved the entire party.

All that being said about death I LOVE being mangled . My DM has that part right in her motto which is " A happy character is a mangled character" I've got 0 issue with waking up captured bound and naked in some raksasha's caravan, or waking up in some temple, or other random place owing a favor to some deity or demon. Rogues and skeletons ? pick up something to bash em with or like yours did lasso em or just do your regular attack.

One place where we differ is I think I like where they are going with "at will" attacks for the arcanically inclined. If it works like a crossbow or whatever but is energy instead so fits the flavour and does comprable damage I really don't see the harm. If it does more damage I can see fence sitting and being hesitant, but the melee types don't run out of stuff to do till HP runs out and if BO9S is any indication (and they've mentioned it was something they were using part of 4e in) it looks like melee types may just get closer to the arcane at end levels too so the propsed energy attack may as well scale some ... just my 2 copper.

 

[Elf Witch]

All that being said about death I LOVE being mangled . My DM has that part right in her motto which is " A happy character is a mangled character" I've got 0 issue with waking up captured bound and naked in some raksasha's caravan, or waking up in some temple, or other random place owing a favor to some deity or demon. Rogues and skeletons ? pick up something to bash em with or like yours did lasso em or just do your regular attack.

One place where we differ is I think I like where they are going with "at will" attacks for the arcanically inclined. If it works like a crossbow or whatever but is energy instead so fits the flavour and does comprable damage I really don't see the harm. If it does more damage I can see fence sitting and being hesitant, but the melee types don't run out of stuff to do till HP runs out and if BO9S is any indication (and they've mentioned it was something they were using part of 4e in) it looks like melee types may just get closer to the arcane at end levels too so the propsed energy attack may as well scale some ... just my 2 copper.

I am waiting to see how they handle it. If it is some kind of energy attack lie a warlock's blast I would not have to much issue with as long as it not like magic missle.


I keep hearing this complaint that fighters don't run out of stuff to do. That is not true fighters fight that is what they are good at. But have an armored fighter trying to sneak around and be stealthy they can't do it unless they strip off the armor. Or with their really lousy choice of skills they can't be diplomatic , good at gathering info, or even knowledge about anything.

Maybe in games where the focus is combat all the time I can see it as an issue that the non meele types run out spells and what not and so they don't have as much to do in combat.

In the games I play in there is a lot of non combat encounters and this is where you see how the fighter type playes sitting around bored stacking their dice. I hope that 4E address some of this as well.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Maybe in games where the focus is combat all the time I can see it as an issue that the non meele types run out spells and what not and so they don't have as much to do in combat.

In the games I play in there is a lot of non combat encounters and this is where you see how the fighter type playes sitting around bored stacking their dice. I hope that 4E address some of this as well.

I find that in the VAST majority of games combat is about 80% of the game. Sometimes one session will have a lot of social interaction and non-combat encounters, but it will be the rare one.

In nearly every Living Greyhawk, Xen'drik Expeditions, and other RPGA campaign mod, there are 3 combat encounters in a 4-5 hour long adventure. Each combat encounter in 3.5e tends to take between 45 minutes to 120 minutes depending. So, at the very minimum, it is using up over half the time in the game with combat.

The same holds true for the pacing of nearly every published adventure.

So, if you're going to sit down for a 5 hour session and spend at least 2 and a half hours of it in combat, it's nice to have something that you consider "fun" to do during that time.

Non-combat encounters don't have AS MUCH of this issue. If the rogue is searching for traps, it should only take 5 minutes to find and disarm them. Generally, no longer than waiting for your turn to come around in a battle. So your "downtime" isn't the same.

The place where it could use some more "fun" rules and abilities is long social encounters where you spend an hour or so talking to NPCs, gathering information, making contacts, etc. The fighters need to be able to get involved in the same way that everyone else does.