What the World needs: E6 in Book Format

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Sooo.....

What's being done then isn't really "E6", but a d20 variant based on the E6 idea, right?

I mean, I really don't see how you've got much of a need for a whole new document; but then again, I never saw a point to those "capstone" abilities that people were always going on about either.

Just slightly confused and trying to figure out A) what exactly is being done and B) why.

Stuff like "what monsters to include" and all... that's really a table sort of idea/discussion, isn't it?

I guess the problem I've got is that right now, "E6" has a limited meaning. Of course, lots of people use "E6" as a shorthand to mean "low magic and gritty" but not everyone means that or wants it either. Already if I talk about "e6" I need to make sure it's understood that I'm not talking ultra low magic; making some sort of "full game" or something seems like it's only going to drift the idea even further from what used to be a nice simple hack.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Sooo.....

What's being done then isn't really "E6", but a d20 variant based on the E6 idea, right?

Yes. To be more accurate, I (at least) should really be saying "an E6-inspired, minimal rule set based on the Fantasy d20 SRD" or something.

I mean, I really don't see how you've got much of a need for a whole new document; but then again, I never saw a point to those "capstone" abilities that people were always going on about either.

Just slightly confused and trying to figure out A) what exactly is being done and B) why.

What:
By my count there are two projects, with two goals. One is a baseline rule set that's easier for (some) people to work with for E6-style projects than the full 3.5e SRD. This will be a set of rtfs, as well as an online reference roughly analogous to (but sadly not as slick as) d20srd.org.

The other is Lord Xtheth's project, which, if I'm not mistaken, involves a website and ultimately an out-of-the-box d20 game based on the E6 idea.

Why:
Personally, my motivation isn't need, but convenience. I just want a document that contains literally only 6 levels of 3.5e, or as close to that as possible, just so I don't see balors and timestop when I'm looking at the rules. And a few others have expressed a desire to be able to point players to a doc that's simpler than the full SRD.

Lord Xtheth's motivation is Lord Xtheth's. But I suspect there will be significant overlap between his goal and the other-- hopefully enough overlap that he can leverage his publication off whatever comes of this.

Stuff like "what monsters to include" and all... that's really a table sort of idea/discussion, isn't it?

Yes, that's true. So there will be judgment calls in building this SRD-- but that's why it's being done out in the open. But in the end it should be easy enough for anyone to download and tweak up or down in power as desired. And the full 20-level SRD is still out there, not to mention every other publication.

I guess the problem I've got is that right now, "E6" has a limited meaning. Of course, lots of people use "E6" as a shorthand to mean "low magic and gritty" but not everyone means that or wants it either. Already if I talk about "e6" I need to make sure it's understood that I'm not talking ultra low magic; making some sort of "full game" or something seems like it's only going to drift the idea even further from what used to be a nice simple hack.

Interesting, and I think I understand what you're getting at. I admit we have been a little careless in throwing around the term E6 up to this point.

So to clarify, I completely agree that E6 is a neutral term, void of any implicit playstyle. In a sentence, I'd define 3.5e E6 as "PCs stop levelling at 6th, then advance slowly after that by accumulating feats." Yes, that does leave some aspects of the game wide open.

I do believe that it's fair to say that that simply stripping the full SRD down to 6 PC levels doesn't result in a particular playstyle assumption like "ultra-low magic" or "grim and gritty". It just results in a game with 6 PC levels. Of course, by necessity, certain things-- like the monsters and magic items list and advancement variants-- will be judgment calls, but I hope the lines will end up being drawn fairly generically in the minimal "core" SRD, as they are in the full SRD. And again, all the other resources are still there.

Discussion on this has only just begun down in the Legacy forum, so chime in if something seems wrong.

 

[Lord Xtheth]

The other is Lord Xtheth's project, which, if I'm not mistaken, involves a website and ultimately an out-of-the-box d20 game based on the E6 idea.

Well, I was orriginally going to put together an SRD-like platform for E6, but now that I don't have to, I'll just make a promotional website with the rules and stuff available for free refference, most likely with a link to the_orc_within's SRD as well. The second part is absolutely true. Publishing an out-of-the-box d20 E6 variant that's easy to read, refference... and hopefully cleans up some rules. I'm not going to Pathfinder-ize things, I'm just going to cut the glut that explains levels beyond 6.

Lord Xtheth's motivation is Lord Xtheth's. But I suspect there will be significant overlap between his goal and the other-- hopefully enough overlap that he can leverage his publication off whatever comes of this.

My first motivation is Experience. I want to show people I have the abilities I keep telling them I have. I can write, I can edit, I can do layout, but with no actual publications under my belt, it's hard to prove. Therefore, I'm doing this to get my name into existance, both for RPG design etc. and website design. More stuff in a portfolio never hurts anyone.
My second motivation is love. I love gaming, I love RPGs. I want the world to have options, and I want them to be cheap and/or free. If me making an E6RPG rulebook helps someone play the game AWESOME!
My third motivation is money. I've been unemployed for over a year, maybe a publication will notice what I'm doing, or in the future what I've done, and I might be able to land a job out of it. Maybe I can get donations for my work... maybe I can sell a couple PDFs... Any way it goes, its better than sitting arround praying that one of the 1000+ places I've applied to call me back. I'm a pro-active Bum!

 

[Dice4Hire]

Hopefully this guy will be gone soon.

 

[Ry]

I never saw a point to those "capstone" abilities that people were always going on about either.

I'm going on the record agreeing with this. There's no need. It was something I introduced because a lot of people wanted it. I'd rather a "core E6 rulebook" didn't have anything except the base rules to level 6 (but picking base rules is up to you folks)

 

[fireinthedust]

Throwing my hat into the ring:


1) I've designed a setting with e6 in mind. If I publish it, I'll have a section where I discuss how to run E6 heroes, True20, and other systems in the same setting.

2) E6 is assumed already in monster design. Look at the PF Bestiary. High level monsters should be there, and accurately depict what they should for their concept.

3) High-level items in my setting are all there. They're just in places that are incredibly dangerous, like the hordes of ancient red dragons, or the palaces of abyssal fiends like Orcus. Ie: exactly there you'd expect a sphere of annihilation you can control would be.
Why limit game options? Powerful stuff should be out there.

4) SSS had the Relics & Rituals books. One of them discussed Ritual magic. D20 Modern and Arcana had a ritual casting thing. It could work like 4e: non-combat spells get relegated to rituals.
Fixed up, an E6 setting could/should have a way that low-level cultists can team up for something big. Sure, they need a 6th level spellcaster to focus themselves, but you get it.


I don't know about a total re-write. I think a basic PF book with added feats for 6th level would be good. Allowing iconic 20level abilities to be added in is good. Changing everything we already own isn't.

Might as well just play True20 if you're doing a total re-write.

 

[deinol]

I'm going on the record agreeing with this. There's no need. It was something I introduced because a lot of people wanted it. I'd rather a "core E6 rulebook" didn't have anything except the base rules to level 6 (but picking base rules is up to you folks)

I prefer the idea of capstone feats. You leave level 6 as it is in the core rules (whether you are using 3.5 or Pathfinder) and add some feats that can only be added to 6th level characters of particular classes. One of the main areas that E6 truly differs from the core game is what feats you make available at 6+.

As to what should be included, while a GM may decide to use higher level monsters or spells, I think those should be a note to refer to the full SRD for reference. If I were to buy a single E6 book, I wouldn't want to clutter it with corner cases. Trim the monsters to around CR10 and keep spells level 1-3. It has the most use as a player's guide, and perhaps if there is enough demand do an advanced DM's guide that includes higher level threats and spells.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I'm going on the record agreeing with this. There's no need. It was something I introduced because a lot of people wanted it. I'd rather a "core E6 rulebook" didn't have anything except the base rules to level 6 (but picking base rules is up to you folks)

Agreed. The idea behind the E6 baseline SRD (at least the one we're working on) is to get a very basic rule set as close to WotC's original RAW as possible, without introducing anything new, other than (iirc) info on advancement beyond 6th level and that handful of feats in Ryan Stou'n's original document (eg, "Ability Training", "Resoration" etc). This will be the "core" SRD, and is slowly unfolding in a thread in Legacy forum (E6 SRD - community project) for those interested in following our progress or contributing.

I prefer the idea of capstone feats. You leave level 6 as it is in the core rules (whether you are using 3.5 or Pathfinder) and add some feats that can only be added to 6th level characters of particular classes. One of the main areas that E6 truly differs from the core game is what feats you make available at 6+.

After the baseline SRD is complete, we hope to tack on all the extra bits that make E6 games so different from group to group. At that point will come the appendices for variant rules, probably separated in the same sort of way that d20srd.org separates the core SRD itself from divine rules or UA. We'll phase in E6ified WotC OGC rules (eg, UA, etc), as well as the common E6-specific rules, such as capstone feats. Ultimately, this is likely to be done as a wiki resource for people to add to, browse, and pick and choose what they like-- but that's still quite a way out on the horizon.

 

[fireinthedust]

I don't know that you NEED to re-do a lot of the monsters. Use the already existant Bestiary unless you're adding something new.

Like pre-statted NPCs. You'll need loads of different 1-6th level humans, from guards, guard captains, pirates, pirate captains, apprentices, wizards, clerics of every style you can get...

plus Templates are your friend: you'll want, for example, sample fiendish everything... some Vampires would be good: one Dracula and a bunch of spawn brides.

Don't waste space here. Everyone who's buying it already has the PF book. Show them a quick guide to making E6 characters referencing the book. Then you'd probably just want a long list of E6 feats for higher 6th level characters, some which could allow better spells, some which act as Capstones or cover classic powers.

Then a chart for CRs and challenges by level are a must.

I don't think bothering with reinventing the wheel is something a game company would care about in a prospective employee. Sure, summarize the important parts. However, you may want to create the book in a way that gets the source material bought: reference the Core PF book, for example.

 

[prosfilaes]

2) E6 is assumed already in monster design. Look at the PF Bestiary. High level monsters should be there, and accurately depict what they should for their concept.

I don't see the point in having the stats for a tarrasque. The PCs can't do anything about it, so it does whatever damage the DM wants and leaves. Even the rest of the creatures need thought; if humans can no longer reach 15th level, real powerful intelligent creatures either need to be running things or have a good reason they aren't.