What to play next? Help me solve my D&D(ilemma)

[Mercurius]

Here's the situation. My game group is finishing up an adventure and we're at a crossroads. We've been playing 4E and everyone is a bit burnt out with it, mainly because of the length and dominance of combat, especially the annoying intricacies of conditions ("Wait, am I just Prone and Dazed or am I also Slowed?"). We've played our characters up to 16th level and are fine with either starting at 1st level or continuing on with these characters.

I've thought of transitioning the group to Pathfinder and running them through an Adventure Path, but am worried that 4E to Pathfinder is out of the frying pan and into the fire. We were hoping that the 5E playtest would be out by now, but who knows when that's due. 13th Age sounds intriguing, but that's not until August. We don't want to switch from D&D (so please, no recommendations for Savage Worlds! I like SW too, but I want otyughs and hit points ) but we want a simpler, quicker game than 4E, something with support and, due to time constraints, pre-published adventures.

To put that all another way, I'm being super finicky and trying to have my cake and eat it too. Here are my criteria in summary:

1) Within the D&D family ("d20 games")
2) Quick(ish) learning curve from 4E
3) A decent amount of published material, in particular adventures (or easy to convert to from other forms of D&D)
4) Quick but tactically rich combat

The last is the key and perhaps something that may be too much to ask. We like the tactical nature of 4E combat, we just don't like how much time it takes. In our last session we played from about 8 until 1; we played two combat encounters, the first of which took 2.5 hours and the second of which took 1.5 hours - so 80% of the session! If we could even just knock that down to 50% we'd be fine.

One thought that came to mind is spending a bit of time "weeding" 4E of the less interesting elements of combat, namely conditions. We're already reducing monster HP by 20-30%, but I'm thinking more like 50% might be better, with an increase in damage by 20-30%. Any other ideas along this vein? Is there a paired down version of 4E out there, complete with powers but without all the extra stuff?

Sorry for the rambling post - I'm in a bit of a hurry but wanted to get this up in the hopes of replies by this evening. Any ideas?

Thanks!

 

[innerdude]

To put that all another way, I'm being super finicky and trying to have my cake and eat it too. Here are my criteria in summary:

1) Within the D&D family ("d20 games")
2) Quick(ish) learning curve from 4E
3) A decent amount of published material, in particular adventures (or easy to convert to from other forms of D&D)
4) Quick but tactically rich combat

The last is the key and perhaps something that may be too much to ask.

Well....yeah, #4 is the hardest one to fit, given your criteria. If it weren't for #4, I'd immediately say Castles and Crusades.

I might also say Fantasy Craft, except you've already stated you're less interested in "fiddly bits," and Fantasy Craft is nothing if not full of fiddly-ness.

I've said before, when it comes to D&D, 3.x and 4e have pretty much definitively proven that you can have:

• Quick and easy DM prep
• Engaging combat
• Broad non-combat options that work within a variety of play styles

The only problem is you can only pick two.

To be honest, I'd probably go with core rulebook-only Pathfinder, and find ways to limit wizards from getting out of hand too soon (strict adherence to spellbook limitations, etc.).

Or I'd try Arcana Evolved.

EDIT: Depending on your tastes, Dungeon Crawl Classics might be something to look at as well.

EDIT 2: I know you said you don't want to try Savage Worlds. But for my group, it was the PERFECT interlude system between two fairly "heavy" Pathfinder campaigns, without sacrificing playability at all.

 

[Mercurius]

Thanks for the reply, [MENTION=85870]innerdude[/MENTION]. A few questions - any feel free to step in.

1) How are the combat tactics in Pathfinder relative to 4E? I know there aren't powers but are there enough interesting options to give a sense of variance, combat to combat, and for martial characters to be able to come up with heavy hits every few rounds?

2) What's the time ratio of combat in Pathfinder vs. 4E? I've heard they're similar, with Pathfinder maybe being slightly quicker (80%)?

3) Is there anything that can be easily taken out of Pathfinder or 4E, in your opinion, to quicken things up but not take away too much from the integrity of the combat system?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Mercurius,

I'm currently running a Pathfinder campaign, and playing in 4e (I'm a day dot DDI subscriber and have also DM'd), 3.5 and traveller campaigns so I'd like to think I have some measure of idea here. As a subscriber of every line Paizo has to offer, I also know what's up there too.

Based upon what you say, I would try Pathfinder if you have not already. Trying an "older" edition gets that nice balance of familiarity but freshness which it sounds your group is looking for. If you want a complete and established and incredibly well supported sandbox campaign, I can obviously suggest Kingmaker: the one I'm currently running. However, there are two further options here I would suggest if you are of a mind:

- Rise of the Runelords is being re-released in full hardcover with everything under the hood in the one package, updated to the Pathfinder rules (the original was 3.5). They are producing minis specifically for the campaign and the level of support and discussion is through the roof (to the point of most likely being overwhelmed by the support; you need support for the support almost).

- The new adventure path: Skull and Shackles starting with the Wormwood mutiny. This is fun piratey goodness by the looks of things but it is certainly aimed at a group of PCs that doesn't have any Paladin-like holier than thou types. New adventure paths are always fun.

It is obviously going to cost you a chunk of money but I've always found my Paizo purchases well worth it.

In terms of your questions:

1) How are the combat tactics in Pathfinder relative to 4E? I know there aren't powers but are there enough interesting options to give a sense of variance, combat to combat, and for martial characters to be able to come up with heavy hits every few rounds?

Combat can be more centrally or clump-focused. With a dis-interested group, it can be just hp attrition but with a good group, combat is always going to have a dynamic element to it. 4e has more movement but you also have the raft of conditions to track which is fun for some but not for others.

2) What's the time ratio of combat in Pathfinder vs. 4E? I've heard they're similar, with Pathfinder maybe being slightly quicker (80%)?

We play "classic" 4e rather than essentials. At lower levels (3rd and under) Pathfinder is dramatically quicker (about half to one third the time) for a "minor" combat. In that 4th to 9th sweetspot, combat length is "perfect"; and still significantly quicker (I'd say closer to 70%). The important thing here is not so much the time taken but the use of that time. As long as you don't have a slow decision-maker, you're fine. From 10th to about 13th, things start slowing down to "on par" where as once you go for levels 14th and above, things can slow down dramatically. While there are ways to speed it up, on the whole, high level combat can really drag.

3) Is there anything that can be easily taken out of Pathfinder or 4E, in your opinion, to quicken things up but not take away too much from the integrity of the combat system?

I would leave everything in. Things we use to speed things up include:
- Initiative board (magnetic with erasable pen).
- Minis
- Spell Cards
On the DM side of the ledger, I use Hero Lab to track characters as well as quickly create extra bad guys. Hero Lab is in my opinion better than the 4e CB although both are excellent. Lab certainly has more flexibility but it will cost about $100 for all the stuff.

In terms of books to use, I would suggest the following as "must-haves":
Core Rules
All the Bestiaries
Advanced Player's Guide
And these as really desired options:
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Magic.

Each AP also has a player's guide which will give them a handful of campaign specific options which is always good.

Such is my humble suggestion.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Elf Witch]

What about E6 or something like that? It is DnD but you don't get the huge power and complexity you get with a game that has higher levels.

 

[Quickleaf]

Hmm, getting all 4 of those in one system is tough.

Speaking from my experience with True20 I can safely say it covers #1, 2, and 4. However there are hardly any adventures written for the system except for a couple Freeport adventures. There's no opportunity attacks or interrupt attacks and precious little multi-attacking, but the rest of the trappings of combat should be familiar. There arent really magic items but the bestiary and companion have most of the core D&D monsters. However, they replace HP with a damage & fatigue track; I really enjoyed that but if HP are a "make it or break it" consider yourself warned.

 

[scourger]

...so please, no recommendations for Savage Worlds! I like SW too, but I want otyughs and hit points...

Too bad! But understandable.

To put that all another way, I'm being super finicky and trying to have my cake and eat it too. Here are my criteria in summary:
1) Within the D&D family ("d20 games")
2) Quick(ish) learning curve from 4E
3) A decent amount of published material, in particular adventures (or easy to convert to from other forms of D&D)
4) Quick but tactically rich combat

This is a good suggestion:

What about E6 or something like that? It is DnD but you don't get the huge power and complexity you get with a game that has higher levels.

I also think the new Gamma World would be great for you. It is a simplified 4e. There are adventures in the core game and 2 published modules. It is very plug & play, fire & forget. There are even counters in the boxed set. It should be enough material to tide you over until the next ed(&d)ition.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My personal 3PP d20 FRPG is Arcana Evolved...but I'm NOT recommending it.

Instead, I'm suggesting Mutants & Masterminds with the Warriors & Warlock sourcebook. Because its core engine is a genericized toolbox version of the D20system, plays will be able to simulate not only 3.X type PCs, but possibly others as well, including 4Ed type builds.


Review of Warriors & Warlocks - RPGnet d20

It should meet most of your criteria, and can be run with the M&M core book, W&W sourcebook, and possibly the Book of Msgic as all you'd really need. There are no adventures for it AFAIK, though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

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[Dannyalcatraz]

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