Well, first a few things up front.
First, I am not about to spend tons of time arguing with people who have already decided where they stand. I'm not posting this to change anyone's mind, because people tend to believe what they want to believe. I long ago gave up the notion that most people change their minds when presented with facts.
Second, while I am controversial, I am honest. I tell it like it is, I speak my mind, and I don't hold back even if it means being banned. I hoenstly don't care what people think of me. Those who like me will like me, those who don't like me never will. So what I'm going to say a little further down is brutal honesty, because I'll be admitting things about myself as well. I have no need to lie about things.
Finally, Ourph's 1st paragraph in his last post (#60) pretty much sums up most of what I'm getting at.
Now, on to specifics. Some answers will be general instead of addressing particular posters since several people have had the same questions.
On the issue of blacklisting, I am not at liberty to reveal what I've heard. Yes, I realize this opens me to all sorts of accusations and disbelief. And once again, I don't care if that causes some people to believe that I am merely trolling or engaging in "character assassination" due to an "agenda". I have it on good sources that several publishers have essentially said that people who write for OSRIC will never write for them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the OSRIC crowd has in the past severely and brutally attacked certain members of the various OOP communities who work for some of these companies, nor does it take a rocket scientist to acknowledge that the same OSRIC crowd has viciously attacked certain websites in the past as well as engaged in character assassination of several companies and their owners. This is a matter of historical and public record, whether some are aware of the issues or not. You can do the math.
As for the legal issues, I have yet to hear from any acknowledged legal source (ie an IP or copyright lawyer) that OSRIC is legal. More than a few well-read people have (while not being actual lawyers) come across issues that cause concern. I don't care to hash them out because I don't care about it. Suffice it to say there are still lingering questions and that WOTC is in the process of investigating it.
Now, on to specifics:
Geron wote:
Your first post, as well as your second now, make you sound like you have your own stakes and favoritisms to playing a role here. They have nothing neutral and "just looking for honest answers". I don't care what happened in other threads on other boards.
I understand you don't care about that. Nonetheless, that dynamic exists. Is there bad blood between me and the OSRIC crowd? Obviously! I admit that, and I fully accept that that fact alone calls my posts into question. I'd question them too, given the history between me and the OSRIC crowd. That history, however, does go both ways, and does not automatically make my issues with OSRIC an exercise in character assassination. Do I have a stake in all this? No. Like I said, I do my thing and I don't care what goes on with OSRIC. Do I have some favoritism going on? Duh! Obviously! I don't like the OSRIC crowd, they don't like me. There's the honesty for you. I've bashed them every bit as hard as they've bashed me and others they don't get along with. You'll get that honest admission from me. You will not get the same admission from them despite the public record and despite it being common knowledge on other sites (as to the facts of the history). I've never claimed t be an angel, and I've never claimed that I have no bias in all this.
Your posts here are accusative and borderline insulting, without you backing it up with anything more than hearsay.
Well, I am not about to break a confidence just to satisfy the disbelief of several people who obviously have already decided and "picked sides" so to speak. Again, if that dilutes (in their eyes) the relevance of my posts, so be it. I honestly don't care.
You mean like half a dozen D&D 3E "Lite" versions?
I don't play 3E or d20 and have no knowledge of any of the 3E lite games you're speaking of. I have no use for anything that came after 2E, so I can't comment on it.
You choose a weird context for something serving a purpose other than somebody wanted to create it, had fun doing it, and so did it
The reason I bring it up is because the OSRIC crowd was crowing about it as if it were some revolutionary breakthrough, when in fact it is not. It serves no need, because people can accomplish the goals OSRIC claims to allow, without using OSRIC. I've never disputed their right to create, publish, or use it. I've only ever questioned why they think it's such a big deal when in fact it's as much as non-event as when Geraldo opened Al Capone's safe.
And what other ways of publishing 1E compatible material do you know that is so close to the original rules? Examples would be nice.
I thought I already did. People can do as BIP and DF are doing and publish free works. So far, there's been no problems over the course of several years of doing so. People can also go the Goodman Games route and simply print up AD&D material as long as they don't print more than 500 copies, which makes it a fanzine and does not break copyright rules. I doubt many people can sell that many copies anyway, so it works just fine that way. People can also use stuff like C&C or Rob Kuntz's CU stats to create adventures, since those systems are pretty much instantly convertable. Plus, they have the option of approaching those companies and attempting to get signed on as writers.
So there are three ways of doing it so far. Where is the need for OSRIC? I'm not seeing it, neither are many other people.
So, you work for WotC legal department or something? Or are "legal questions" anything that somebody might post on a message board as layman speculation?
Until I see an approval from either WOTC or a lawyer who specializes in IP and copyright law, that's all we have is "layman speculation". However, there are plenty of laymen who've looked at it in depth and believe there are problems. Laymen who are pretty knowledgable in the field. Ultimately, it would be up to a judge to decide.
And no, I never claimed to work for WOTC.
As long as WotC hasn't said anything about it (and I doubt we will be the first to hear it, rather than PapersandPaycheks), there's no reason to sound as if there's any legal action going on, except for rabble-rousing.
WOTC has told several people that I know of so far (and who knows how many others they've spoken with) and each of us has been told that WOTC is taking a long hard look at OSRIC and that there were "concerns" was the word the rep used. Note that I am not saying it is not legal. All I am saying is that there are legal questions associated with it that have not been answered and that WOTC is looking into it. That's all factual, and to deny it is to be delusional.
What I object to is somebody coming here, and in his first post, he starts to accuse a few other members of this board of being of an unsavory reputation.
It's not an accusation, it's a fact. I don't play the role of "gentleman", I tell it like it is, and I'm brutally honest. I freely admit that I have a rather unsavory reputation in certain circles just the same. Again, while I will admit that fact, the OSRIC crowd cannot admit the same despite the fact that it is true. And once again, I don't care about "convincing" anyone of anyone else's reputation. However, since it comes from good sources that the reputations of certain OSRIC developers has caused certain publishers from blacklisting people associated with OSRIC, that point does need to be made public because there are plenty of OOP fans who were not around to see all the fighting and all the history and all the drama, and would be unaware that such a reputation exists and has an effect. I'm not asking anyone to believe me without looking into it on their own. People are free to make their own decisions. They should be aware of certain hidden consequences though, since I know some of the OSRIC people well enough to know that such an issue would not concern them, ie they won't care if someone else gets hurt through association with their reputation.
And on top of that, all he brings up as anything even remotely similar to "evidence" is the reference to "certain publishers" and "blacklisting", without giving a direct quote, link, or anything else that enables posters here to first-hand satisfy their curiosity, and which would enable the accused to give their side of the matter. That's one thing, and one thing only: slander.
You obviously haven't played politics for long. Things like this rarely become outright, publicly stated dictums. Those in the know, know. Those who don't, suffer. Would you break a confidence sworn to secrecy simply because a crowd that does not like you and does not believe you demands hardcore proof? What purpose would that serve?
So as long as you don't back up your accusations, be prepared to be called out for that.
I was fully aware of the coming backlash and "calling out" before I even deciced to post. That's no surprise at all. But it's an effect I am willing to endure.
I don't see any reasons in that to come in and start playing the alarmist, and slandering other posters.
Like I said, this is not slander. There is no question for those who know and were around to see it that there is bad blood between the OSRIC crowd and a lot of other OOP circles. There was a lot of nasty behavior on their part. This isn't slander, it's a fact. And I admit the same about myself, so...am I slandering myself now?
Again, I'm being honest about my role in things as well, but the OSRIC crowd will never be honest about their role in things. And yes, I know this site is in essence "enemy territory" for me. So I expect to get "mugged" over my post. No harm, no foul. I go into things understanding the implications and accept the results as predicted.
Next, Kid Charlemange wrote:
You're not doing a very good job of convincing me, at least.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. As I said before, people make their minds up regardless of facts and do not let the facts get in the way of their beliefs. If nothing else, that's something I've learned with certainty in this life. I tell it like it is, and people can make up their own minds. I frankly don't care what they decide, it's their life and their business.
Next, Henry wrote:
So I ask fellow posters, including Halaster, to do this -- please drop the character assertions. If you have something to say about the whole OSRIC concept - it's not needed, it's legally shaky, etc. by all means let's talk about it. But no more mudslinging or even, "in 2001 so-and-so did this" types of facts.
As I said, I am not mudslinging. I admit there is bad blood between me and the OSRIC crowd, I admit my bias, and I admit my role in the fighting over the years as well as my viciousness towards them in response to their viciousness towards me. I mention it only to establish honesty and openness. I'm not holding anything back, even when that means I must make myself look bad in the process by admitting to my own faults and historical involvement in all this.
DCAS wrote:
Though I'm sure that people bringing it to their attention helps to expidite the "process."
Yes, let's look at that, shall we? Traveller brought that issue up POLITELY to the OSRIC crowd on several threads and was immediately attacked, savaged, denigrated, and villified by the OSRIC crowd over at DF. The OSRIC crowd is also fighting a losing battle at another website on the issue. After refusing to stop the personal attacks, the OSRIC crowd tried to shut out Traveller and dismiss his and others' concerns over OSRIC, with the help and endorsement of the management at DF, which is of course due to political affiliations. As is typical of that site, favoritism plays a strong hand and dissenting opinion is stifled. So that's when Traveller reported it to WOTC. Was it vindictive on his part? Perhaps. And it certainly looked damning. But in any case, 1. it was a legitimate question to present to WOTC, and 2. the OSRIC crowd brought that on themselves by their behavior, including a threat to send "burly men with 2x4's" to Traveller's house to break his knees, and I believe that post is still posted on DF (posted by one of the OSRIC crowd).
Anyone who wants to accuse me of lying can go look. It's right there in black and white.
So once again, we need to look at the whole picture, and that's why I bring this up.
It's only potentially "troubling" to the parties involved -- the developers of OSRIC, those seeking to produce OSRIC materials, and WOTC. For the rest of us it isn't really "troubling" at all.
I'd say it would be troubling to anyone using OSRIC if they published something that got recalled or struck down with a cease and desist because it broke the law. Who wants that on their resume? Who wants to be blacklisted due to "guilt by association"?
Then you should do aspiring authors a favor and name the publishers who have blacklisted OSRIC, eh?
I've given enough info and enough hints for aspiring authors to enable them to do their own research and see where it leads. They're free to decide for themselve what to believe. I don't care which road they take. But I am not about to break a confidence no matter how many of you cry "Show me the proof! Put the cards on the table!". Just ain't gonna happen. Slander me and call me a troll all you like, but that's just the way it's gonna be.
So I think that answers the questions thrown at me (some with bricks attached).
I'll leave it at that outside of any needed clarification, but I don't want to keep going over the same questions again and again, so please read my answers carefully and understand what I am saying.
