What VTT(s) do you most dislike and why? (Defenders welcome to defend)

[Cordwainer Fish]

Roll20 is a complete non-starter for me, because it refuses to support Safari and I refuse to install any other web browser.

If I had time to kill I might see what I could make in CLOG.

 

[MNblockhead]

I'm going to jump on the anti-Roll20 bandwagon. Not because of the trouble with the interface or getting maps setup or storage or even performance and stability, but because to me perhaps the most important part is the company and people behind it.

The Orr Group and Roll20 community staff were just horrible to customers. None of them should have been in a customer facing business. It takes me a long time to forgive corporate behavior like that. I still won't buy VW or Audi because of DieselGate etc. I've heard Roll20 is getting better, but even if they had a better product I won't soon be giving them forgiveness for their past sins.

I heard a little bit about this for the short period of time I was following some Roll20 Reddits, but I never grokked what the kerfuffle was about. From what I recall, Roll20 was over aggressive with forum moderation, banning some users for asking questions. That and overall rude treatment of customers. The rest of the complaints seemed to be about pricing and the slow pace of development.

I mostly didn't and don't care. I see VTT companies as a provider of a service or platform and don't really have an interest in engaging with them in a parasocial manner. If the product doesn't meet my need or is out of my price range than I use something else. Complaints about Roll20 acting in a "monopolistic" manner also felt overwrought to me. There were always competing VTTs, or just using a video-conferencing platform like Zoom, Discord, or Google Meet with screen sharing. Also, so many people are using Roll20 for free. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another VTT platform or software that provides anything but perhaps a short free trial period.

That said, some companies can be just a pain to deal with. I've certainly stopped using services or buying from companies because of poor customer service and bad or offensive attitudes. I've just never had to interact with anyone at Roll20.

 

[MNblockhead]

Roll20 is a complete non-starter for me, because it refuses to support Safari and I refuse to install any other web browser.

If I had time to kill I might see what I could make in CLOG.

Okay, but you are going to be limiting yourself. It reminds me of the Linux folks always kvetching about one software developer or another not supporting Linux. It just doesn't make business sense for most to do so. And with an Internet browser, you can have multiple browsers installed. I avoid Chromium browsers for the most part, but Foundry, while it works for the most part in most major browsers, just runs better in Chrome.

I don't feel that running my Warhammer Fantasy Role Play or D&D games in Chrome is violating any importantly held principles. If sticking to Safari, even for sites that don't run well in it is due to privacy or dislike of Google's "monopoly"...I mean Safari and Apple is better? There are better browser options for privacy and decoupling yourself from megacorps. If it is just a strong preference for the Safari browser, I guess I don't relate to being that strongly attached to a web browser. But then I'm working in 2 to 3 operating systems a day and work in multiple browsers.

I'm just happy to have VTT options that run in a browser so that I can use them in Windows, Mac, and Linux and not have to run software in Parallels, WINE, or a VM,

 

[Cergorach]

To be honest, there isn't really a VTT I dislike as a whole, there can be parts of it I dislike and things that don't fit with me, but disliking a whole solution? Not really. But that's not how I choose a tool, I choose a tool, like a VTT on what I find most important and what fits within that. For me the VTT of choice if Foundry, is it perfect? NO! There are things I dislike about it and things where I say, this isn't a good fit for someone else. Nothing is perfect, and scratching off things because you dislike (parts of) it isn't really productive in my experience. Often a VTT does something better then the rest, how important that part is depends on the person that either runs it or uses it...

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

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[Bomberooski]

Has Roll20 fell into that category where it’s just the biggest dog on the scene and with that it becomes the VTT that people want to cut down?

 

[payn]

Has Roll20 fell into that category where it’s just the biggest dog on the scene and with that it becomes the VTT that people want to cut down?

Even when I thought it was the only VTT available I wanted to cut it down.

 

[LordEntrails]

I heard a little bit about this for the short period of time I was following some Roll20 Reddits, but I never grokked what the kerfuffle was about. From what I recall, Roll20 was over aggressive with forum moderation, banning some users for asking questions. That and overall rude treatment of customers. The rest of the complaints seemed to be about pricing and the slow pace of development.

Well, it was about the operating partner of Roll20 personally banning a user because he gave a list of critiques. And his defense becoming one of the most downvoted posts on reddit. And making it in Newsweek. And this one user not being the only instance. For the longest time you would get insta bans on the Roll20 forum and the Reddit sub (which was moderated by said partner) for the casual mention of another VTT or even saying you didn't like something about Roll20. It was about people who bought modules from Roll20 and they didn't work but they would refuse to give your money back. It was about some of those banned users getting their accounts removed even though they had paid for products.

I mostly didn't and don't care. I see VTT companies as a provider of a service or platform and don't really have an interest in engaging with them in a parasocial manner.

Okay, but do you care about being able to access something you bought? Or being able to get a refund for a defective product? And do you only care if it affects you personally or if its the standard operating procedure for a company and affects numerous others?

That said, some companies can be just a pain to deal with. I've certainly stopped using services or buying from companies because of poor customer service and bad or offensive attitudes. I've just never had to interact with anyone at Roll20.

I get not caring about what the company does and only what it's product does. But then you say this above? So, you only care if it affects you and since some would say you were lucky you were never directly impacted, then it's irrelevant?

Isn't there some saying about this and when they come for you there is no one to help you because you are the only one left?

I get that I hold corporate behavioral/culture grudges for a long time. This is because I know how difficult and how long it takes to change corporate culture. Changing company culture is part of my job.

Has Roll20 fell into that category where it’s just the biggest dog on the scene and with that it becomes the VTT that people want to cut down?

No. Roll20 has serious technical and capability issues. And it's expensive. Yes I know you can stay with the free version, but then it is even more limited in capabilities and their are other free VTTs that work better.

 

[Nebulous]

I use Forge for foundry too. My biggest beef with Foundry is that it is quite technical. Feel like I have to do an IT degree to get it to work how it should.

This is why I can't use Foundry. I bought it, I studied it, I watched Youtube videos, and I still can't wrap my head around it enough to coherently run a game. The technical knowhow is just beyond what my old brain can process without someone already very skilled just walking me through it step by step.

 

[MNblockhead]

To be honest, there isn't really a VTT I dislike as a whole, there can be parts of it I dislike and things that don't fit with me, but disliking a whole solution? Not really. But that's not how I choose a tool, I choose a tool, like a VTT on what I find most important and what fits within that. For me the VTT of choice if Foundry, is it perfect? NO! There are things I dislike about it and things where I say, this isn't a good fit for someone else. Nothing is perfect, and scratching off things because you dislike (parts of) it isn't really productive in my experience. Often a VTT does something better then the rest, how important that part is depends on the person that either runs it or uses it...

Same here, as I expressed in the OP. It is usually one or two things to cause me to not select a specific VTT. Often I really like the product but it doesn't work for me in one area. For example, I really like Fantasy Grounds, but when I was in the market for a VTT I just couldn't host games online or even participate in games as a player reliably because my crappy Internet overseas. Roll20 would have met my needs, but the storage limits at even the highest tiers didn't meet my needs. Foundry just ticked the most important boxes, even though I initially was going to pass on Foundry because it didn't support manual fog of war.

Has Roll20 fell into that category where it’s just the biggest dog on the scene and with that it becomes the VTT that people want to cut down?

I don't think so. At least I don't see people complaining about it much these days, compared to a few years ago. There is also a lot more competition now and if WotC ever releases its VTT, and if it is decent, then we may start seeing Roll20 as another of the scrappy underdogs.

Well, it was about the operating partner of Roll20 personally banning a user because he gave a list of critiques. And his defense becoming one of the most downvoted posts on reddit. And making it in Newsweek. And this one user not being the only instance. For the longest time you would get insta bans on the Roll20 forum and the Reddit sub (which was moderated by said partner) for the casual mention of another VTT or even saying you didn't like something about Roll20. It was about people who bought modules from Roll20 and they didn't work but they would refuse to give your money back. It was about some of those banned users getting their accounts removed even though they had paid for products.

Didn't know about the faulty modules. Were those from third parties or developed by Roll20? Even if third parties, if they are selling it through their marketplace and not offering a trial period, their should be an opportunity for a refund. Even Apple does that with apps on their app store.

I'm a bit worried about Foundry opening its own Marketplace. Not sure they are large enough to handle the customer support. I hope they make enough money from it to make it worth it, but when mod developers had to manage subscriptions and purchases through Patreon, etc. and issues were between the mod creators and their customers. Now that Foundry is selling through their marketplace, people are going to take issues to Foundry, regardless of what caveats and terms and conditions they publish. I worry that it could mean Foundry's goodwill with its customers will take a hit.

Okay, but do you care about being able to access something you bought? Or being able to get a refund for a defective product? And do you only care if it affects you personally or if its the standard operating procedure for a company and affects numerous others?

Yes. Yes. Kinda. Kinda on the last one in the sense that I will read reviews and may steer away from products or companies with bad reputations and reviews. But if a product is working for me and I like it, but it isn't for others, it is not like I'm going to ban the company in solidarity.

I get not caring about what the company does and only what it's product does. But then you say this above? So, you only care if it affects you and since some would say you were lucky you were never directly impacted, then it's irrelevant?

Not really what I'm saying. Some companies can be so toxic that I'll avoid them even if I otherwise like the product, but poor customer service doesn't rise to that level for me. So, yes, I often remain a customer of a company where I'm getting what I want and am not mistreated, even if I hear otherwise from other customers. Restaurants are a great example of this. There is a Korean restaurant my wife and I like that is infamous for its cartoonishly rude service. Like the Korean version of the Seinfeld soup nazi. But we love the food and we no the score. We've been in the restaurant enjoying their food while some new customer loses his or her mind over the staff's attitude. Its just part of the ambiance.

Further I can't think of a single company or product that I love, like, or am fine with where I can't find some people bashing it. Maybe the volume of internet reviews and rage posts on Reddit have desensitized me to complaints, so, if I'm not experiencing the issues myself, I don't see the point getting worked up by other peoples experiences.

Isn't there some saying about this and when they come for you there is no one to help you because you are the only one left?

Yeah, it was about Nazis and the expanding circle of their victims. Poor analogy for a VTT company's poor customer relations. Look, if the The Forge (my hosting company for Foundry) starts acting like jerks to customers and I start seeing lots of complaints about that, I'll take note. But I'm not going migrate my games and cancel my sub if I'm getting the service and support I paid for.

I get that I hold corporate behavioral/culture grudges for a long time. This is because I know how difficult and how long it takes to change corporate culture. Changing company culture is part of my job.

True. I have not bought a Dell in decades because of poor product and customer-support experiences I experienced will Dell when I was younger. But other people have no problems with Dell. The marketplace will sort it out. Lots of competition. I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong about Roll20. It is a product choice. You could ban it because you think the name is dumb. It is your money and time and preferences.

No. Roll20 has serious technical and capability issues. And it's expensive. Yes I know you can stay with the free version, but then it is even more limited in capabilities and their are other free VTTs that work better.

Agreed. Which is why I am a Foundry and The Forge customer. But for basic games, as a player, I still use it and it is fine.