What VTT(s) do you most dislike and why? (Defenders welcome to defend)

[Kichwas]

This is a weird backwards thread to me.

So...

I disliked roll20. It has a UI I just didn't care for, and having to buy the rulebooks was weird when I can get all the rules online at archives of nethys free. I suppose the DnD folks have a free site somewhere too. It's also a subscription. And I can't modify it to my needs. Finding games for it is done inside it's own website, and most of that is paid GMs who need to charge because they've had to buy everything there, and pay a sub.

I disliked Fantasy Grounds because the UI looks like it's from the early 1990s just before the Web became a thing. It looks like it was made to work with a 1990's version of AutoCAD. I never got much further than this because my degree is not in architecture. This despite owning the full unlocked version of it that I bought shortly before discovering roll20 and Foundry existed...

I use Foundry because it's UI looks like what I tell it to look like, the rules are in there free for every game I've loaded into it (at this point that is Pathfinder 2E, Warhammer FRP, Mutants and Masterminds, and Runequest - though other than PF2E I've only loaded them in to 'look around'). I can host it on my own machine, or on molten if I so chose. I bought it rather than subbed to it. When I've found bugs in things with it I've sent off notes and gotten responses from that mod maker fairly fast. Sometimes even a fix within a day. If for some reason that were to not happen there are discords where I could find someone who'd probably write the mod I'd want (though in my case that someone could be me). I've got plenty of discords to find GMs and players - paid and free.

 

[Steve W]

Roll20 burned me so hard years ago when I bought a weather animations pack off the marketplace, it ran like complete crud, I went to customer service who told me that their platform really didn't run animations like that well and then refused to give me a refund or credit of any kind.

They were the big fish in a small pond for too long.

Sorry you got burned in the past. That shouldn't have happened. If you DM me with your Roll20 Account email, I'll look into making that right.

Steve Wieck
Roll20
(sorry, for posting here, I tried to DM this but the system blocked the DM as spam).

 

[MNblockhead]

This is a weird backwards thread to me.

Yeah, intentionally so. I think starting with what you don't like can highlight issues that may be meaningful for those deciding from among the various VTTs on the market. I suppose, ultimately, a long enough "favorite VTT" thread will get there. Also, I personally like all of the VTTs I've used. I don't have strong negative opinions on any one VTT, it is just that some better meet my needs in certain contexts than others.

So...

I disliked roll20. It has a UI I just didn't care for, and having to buy the rulebooks was weird when I can get all the rules online at archives of nethys free. I suppose the DnD folks have a free site somewhere too. It's also a subscription. And I can't modify it to my needs. Finding games for it is done inside it's own website, and most of that is paid GMs who need to charge because they've had to buy everything there, and pay a sub.

I'm finding that GUI doesn't have as much of an effect of my like/dislike of a VTT than others. If it has the features I need for the game I want to run and if I can make the interface get out of my way to focus on the battlemap, I don't much mind after I get past the initial learning curve when confronted with a new GUI. For most games you'll need to buy the rules, regardless of the VTT. If you already have a D&D Beyond subscription, you can import official content into Foundry and Roll20 (and I think, but am not certain, Fantasy Grounds). But if you only have the physical books or PDFs, you'll have to do the work yourself to enter the content. Some publishers offer steep discounts if you already purchased the content (through it usually has to be through their ownline marketplace, though I've heard of but have never seen in the wild discounts on or free digital content through the "Bricks and Mortar" program).

A lot of people complain about having to buy the books again for a VTT if they already have the physical books. I'm 100% on board with that sentiment when it comes to PDFs (and appreciate publishers who give the PDF free or at least at a steep discount when you buy the physical book). But less so with VTT content. It is a lot of work to get content into a VTT properly and to continue to support it. Most TTRPG publishers don't have the resources and for those that do, there just isn't that much profit in it. Most can only select one of the major VTTs to develop for. I see a lot of people who complain that if they buy content in, say, Roll20, they shouldn't have to pay for it again in Foundry. Many publishers would find themselves going out of business if they tried to support that model.

I disliked Fantasy Grounds because the UI looks like it's from the early 1990s just before the Web became a thing. It looks like it was made to work with a 1990's version of AutoCAD. I never got much further than this because my degree is not in architecture. This despite owning the full unlocked version of it that I bought shortly before discovering roll20 and Foundry existed...

I kinda like the FG interface. My main issue is that it can get a bit cluttered. It is probably my lack of familiarity and experience with that platform, but when I have used it, I found myself wishing it was easier to hit a lot of the menus and boxes. Roll20 is pretty good at getting out of my way. I really like how clean Foundry is out of the box and how I can get more screen real estate by collapsing the side bars and macro bar. Pop up windows for character sheets, articles, etc. can get annoying, especially as a DM, and that is one area where I really rely on community modes. I run my games on a three-screen setup (two external plus my laptop screen) and the PopOut! is a must-have for me. I also like combat carousel so I don't have to have the default initiative tracker poped out or keep toggling between the chat and initiative tracker. Also, learning Foundry's keyboard shortcuts pays dividends. Just hitting the C key to open and close the character sheet greatly allows me to be more fluid when running games.

I use Foundry because it's UI looks like what I tell it to look like, the rules are in there free for every game I've loaded into it (at this point that is Pathfinder 2E, Warhammer FRP, Mutants and Masterminds, and Runequest - though other than PF2E I've only loaded them in to 'look around'). I can host it on my own machine, or on molten if I so chose. I bought it rather than subbed to it. When I've found bugs in things with it I've sent off notes and gotten responses from that mod maker fairly fast. Sometimes even a fix within a day. If for some reason that were to not happen there are discords where I could find someone who'd probably write the mod I'd want (though in my case that someone could be me). I've got plenty of discords to find GMs and players - paid and free.

Many if not most games will have some form of core rules or SRD content, but to get the full content of the rules and adventures you have to pay. I suppose you could run Warhammer Fantasy RPG (which you listed) using only the content that comes with the core game system, but you are missing most of the game. Even the starter set requires purchasing the content.

 

[Kichwas]

I pay nothing for the rules in Foundry with Pathfinder 2E. The only thing I'd have to pay for is if I buy their kit for a published adventure. But I've also imported published adventures they didn't have a kit for on my own, and it wasn't all that hard - just a time issue. I have bought the VTT kits for published adventures into Foundry - which come at a notable discount as I already have them on PDF.

So far I've had no need to buy rules for any of the other games I have on Foundry, but if I did, I'd at least be buying them - not paying a sub - and the content would then be on my computer, not on their server.

UI is a major thing for me - and the moment I discovered Foundry, before I was even in any games hosted there, I left every campaign I was in that was being hosted on roll20 because the UI differences were that major for me. And that was as a player. I was paying nothing for those roll20 games. Free was not worth it.

I'm presently in or assisting other GMs with 5 different games run in Foundry. Each GM has very different UI preferences and it's been trivial for them to get things the way they want them. Despite this, all of those games have certain things in common that the Foundry system has - where compendiums are, how scenes are navigated, how journals and character sheets are opened or closed, how logins work, how lighting, sound, and other aspects are handled, how animations can be done, adjusted, etc.
- All of these tools give me certain commonalities that look and feel a way I enjoy while also having a level of customization that is very empowering.

Being locked in to a certain look, feel, and level of customization were all major downsides for me with roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.

I don't have a DnDBeyond account, so I can't speak for their VTT. But as it's locked to one tRPG, that I don't even play - it's a non-starter to begin with. I notice in the Foundry reddit and discord that even many DnD GMs use Foundry over whatever the DnDBeyond thing is. Probably because they can own and control their assets if they use Foundry.

There's likely still a lot of them using roll20 too, because they're locked in from having to buy the rules and such there. But with roll20and Fantasy Grounds making you buy the rules again for Pathfinder 2E despite ALL of that content being free, the Pathfinder scene in those VTTs is near dead. Only a few holdouts from 'sunk cost' issues who bought rules there before Foundry came out and don't yet realize that they can just move over without needing to rebuy the rules. Not only are the rules free in Foundry, there isn't even an option to rebuy the rulebooks there.

And that includes addon splat books like Treasure Vault, Dark Archives, Guns and Gears, etc - books that add loot, treasure, new classes, feats, new rules, etc. That stuff just shows up free a day or two after the books hit retail. Adventures get a charge, and Paizo has also put out kits full of tokens using their official copyrighted art - which are wholly optional as you can do your own tokens, but they of course make things look a lot better. I'm not sure if the same kits are available for other VTTs.

I've looked over the Warhammer stuff, and the Savage Worlds stuff - and they have the same UI that I love. And near as I know both of them only support Foundry. Probably because it means they don't need to put their IP in someone else's shop. But I could be wrong on this.

 

[MNblockhead]

I pay nothing for the rules in Foundry with Pathfinder 2E. The only thing I'd have to pay for is if I buy their kit for a published adventure. But I've also imported published adventures they didn't have a kit for on my own, and it wasn't all that hard - just a time issue. I have bought the VTT kits for published adventures into Foundry - which come at a notable discount as I already have them on PDF.

Yeah, Pathfinder is a stand out in giving content free or at a great discount when you are in another system. I don't play PF, but I've been jealous of the great things that the PF2e community has done with the PF2e game system on Foundry. If I were to play PF2e, I couldn't imagine playing it in another VTT.

So far I've had no need to buy rules for any of the other games I have on Foundry, but if I did, I'd at least be buying them - not paying a sub - and the content would then be on my computer, not on their server.

That is a big benefit of Foundry. You can download and back up and always have access to your content. I assume that Fantasy Grounds is similar. But you are paying a lot more for FG if you don't want a sub.

UI is a major thing for me - and the moment I discovered Foundry, before I was even in any games hosted there, I left every campaign I was in that was being hosted on roll20 because the UI differences were that major for me. And that was as a player. I was paying nothing for those roll20 games. Free was not worth it.

I'm presently in or assisting other GMs with 5 different games run in Foundry. Each GM has very different UI preferences and it's been trivial for them to get things the way they want them. Despite this, all of those games have certain things in common that the Foundry system has - where compendiums are, how scenes are navigated, how journals and character sheets are opened or closed, how logins work, how lighting, sound, and other aspects are handled, how animations can be done, adjusted, etc.
- All of these tools give me certain commonalities that look and feel a way I enjoy while also having a level of customization that is very empowering.

If you want to customize the UI, yes, Foundry allows radically different GUIs depending on the game system and with mods, especially if you are willing to put into the work

Being locked in to a certain look, feel, and level of customization were all major downsides for me with roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.

I don't have a DnDBeyond account, so I can't speak for their VTT. But as it's locked to one tRPG, that I don't even play - it's a non-starter to begin with. I notice in the Foundry reddit and discord that even many DnD GMs use Foundry over whatever the DnDBeyond thing is. Probably because they can own and control their assets if they use Foundry.

Well, the Maps feature in DDB is great for what it is, but it is not a full featured VTT. If you just want to have a map and move tokens around, have it integrated with D&D Beyond content and encounter builder, and have manual fog of war, DDB Maps is great for that. But it can't compare to Foundry for customization, dynamic lighting, and all the powerful lighting and interactive features available in Foundry. Any while I'm not that worried about control of DDB content, it is nice that with Foundry you can keep a local backup.

There's likely still a lot of them using roll20 too, because they're locked in from having to buy the rules and such there. But with roll20and Fantasy Grounds making you buy the rules again for Pathfinder 2E despite ALL of that content being free, the Pathfinder scene in those VTTs is near dead. Only a few holdouts from 'sunk cost' issues who bought rules there before Foundry came out and don't yet realize that they can just move over without needing to rebuy the rules. Not only are the rules free in Foundry, there isn't even an option to rebuy the rulebooks there.

I think that this is pretty unique to Pathfinder, but I don't know. Patherfinder seems to be exceptionally generous.

And that includes addon splat books like Treasure Vault, Dark Archives, Guns and Gears, etc - books that add loot, treasure, new classes, feats, new rules, etc. That stuff just shows up free a day or two after the books hit retail. Adventures get a charge, and Paizo has also put out kits full of tokens using their official copyrighted art - which are wholly optional as you can do your own tokens, but they of course make things look a lot better. I'm not sure if the same kits are available for other VTTs.

I've looked over the Warhammer stuff, and the Savage Worlds stuff - and they have the same UI that I love. And near as I know both of them only support Foundry. Probably because it means they don't need to put their IP in someone else's shop. But I could be wrong on this.

Cubicle 7 only supports foundry because they didn't develop the a VTT game system. A community fan (all hail Moohammer) built it and did such a great job that they brought him on and worked with him to get the official content into Foundry so they could offer it for sale. I do think you point about the IP has merit though. Games Workshop has a...reputation for aggressively protecting their IP. Cubicle7 sells the Foundry modules through their online store and you enter the product keys in your Foundry account. They are not selling Warhammer Fantasy content on the Foundry VTT Marketplace. You can much more easily sell content directly to customers for Foundry than with other VTTs--at least that's my perception.

 

[Kichwas]

Cubicle 7 only supports foundry because they didn't develop the a VTT game system. A community fan (all hail Moohammer) built it and did such a great job that they brought him on and worked with him to get the official content into Foundry so they could offer it for sale. I do think you point about the IP has merit though. Games Workshop has a...reputation for aggressively protecting their IP. Cubicle7 sells the Foundry modules through their online store and you enter the product keys in your Foundry account. They are not selling Warhammer Fantasy content on the Foundry VTT Marketplace. You can much more easily sell content directly to customers for Foundry than with other VTTs--at least that's my perception.

Yeah this is a major point not just for an IP jealous company like GW. But any small house wanting to ensure it doesn't lose control of it's IP to someone else's server farm and content policies. As companies change their policies or try to change contracts - that can be an issue for a publisher with smaller resources.

We've seen that drama play out many times in the difference between apps you get from Apply and those you get for an Android device. Small companies are always complaining when Apple takes a bigger cut or changes a policy. On the other hand those policy changes are often to protect end user privacy - but that isn't a concern, yet, in the tRPG space.

I only have familiarity with roll20, Foundry, and Fantasy Grounds. I know there are several VTTs out there for theater of the mind style games, like the 'owl-something' one. I wonder if these are also good choices for small companies wishing to ensure IP and customer 'engagement' control?

 

[chuckdee]

like the 'owl-something' one

https://owlbear.rodeo

Not really ToTM. I view those entries more along the Alchemy or Role VTTs.

 

[Bae'zel]

Anyone use Alchemy?

At first glance it appeared more user friendly and less technical than others, but I've been having a hell of a time setting things up in the UI. There are a lot of quirks if you're making a custom campaign. So quirky that I suspect that they really just want to you buy and use pre-made stuff from their store.

 

[LordEntrails]

But less so with VTT content. It is a lot of work to get content into a VTT properly and to continue to support it.

Exactly. And as someone who has done their own content conversion to VTT and professional ones as well (right now I'm converting FrontierSpace). The level of work is not trivial. And at least for niche RPGs, will never pay a living wage even when charing full price for them.

and the content would then be on my computer, not on their server.

This is important to me as well. It's one reason I chose FG.

Being locked in to a certain look, feel, and level of customization were all major downsides for me with roll20 and Fantasy Grounds.

Did you not like the various themes or extensions FG has to change the look and feel? Besides just changing the colors and graphics of everything, you can go with an extension like Better Menus that changes from the UI to drop down menus.

I assume that Fantasy Grounds is similar. But you are paying a lot more for FG if you don't want a sub.

Fantasy Ground is the exact same price as a Foundry license. Folks still have stuck in their minds the prices from years past. A perpetual FG Ultimate license is $50. And if you picked it up during the Winter sale last ~November it was only $25. Pretty darn cheap to be able to host unlimited number of free users, forever.

 

[chuckdee]

A perpetual FG Ultimate license is $50

To be fair, that's a very new development.