What VTT(s) do you most dislike and why? (Defenders welcome to defend)

[LordEntrails]

I'm a bit worried about Foundry opening its own Marketplace. Not sure they are large enough to handle the customer support. I hope they make enough money from it to make it worth it, but when mod developers had to manage subscriptions and purchases through Patreon, etc. and issues were between the mod creators and their customers. Now that Foundry is selling through their marketplace, people are going to take issues to Foundry, regardless of what caveats and terms and conditions they publish. I worry that it could mean Foundry's goodwill with its customers will take a hit.

Well I took a brief look at their new marketplace and was astounded by the costs of a few items I looked into. For instance, the Kingmaker AP is 60% higher on Foundry than a printed version is. I was told that this is because they included high resolution maps, mapping assets and sound files. Given that I don't like sound (tried it a couple times, my players just turned it off) and professional non-AI maps are way cheaper elsewhere, it was way over priced imo.

I will admit to mixed feelings though about it. I want there to be more money and commercialization in RPGs so that more creators can make a living making quality RPG content. But of course I don't think anyone should ever be gouged. And given how much of the Foundry community early on was anything but anti-piracy... Well, I've got mixed feelings about the success of the marketplace.

I guess in the end I want it to be successful, but I've got to get over some negative emotions surrounding that community.

 

[Cergorach]

This is why I can't use Foundry. I bought it, I studied it, I watched Youtube videos, and I still can't wrap my head around it enough to coherently run a game. The technical knowhow is just beyond what my old brain can process without someone already very skilled just walking me through it step by step.

That is an issue, it's an issue with any program with many features and options. But what people tend to forget is that not every DM is a techwizard, but it's perfectly possible for someone else in your group to manage it and for you to just run it. But manage expectations, if you want a lot out of it, you need to put in a lot. But it's also perfectly possible to run with the basics and maybe a module or two for dice rolling (Dice so Nice and Dice Tray).

For instance, the Kingmaker AP is 60% higher on Foundry than a printed version is.

That is not correct info.
The Paizo PF2e Kingmaker adventure path costs $99 in physical form (even just the PDF is $50):

paizo.com - Pathfinder Kingmaker Adventure Path

The Foundry VTT marketplace price is $115 for the Kingmaker module ($98 on sale right now).

The difference being that IF you run it physically you would also need battlemaps (3x $30) and tokens/pawns ($60 OOP).

What these FVTT modules offer is a complete prepared experience for you as DM. Don't forget that Kingmaker is a 640 page adventure path for PF2e, converting that into a module up to that kind of quality would take many, many hours (hundreds). Even if you don't care for the sound/music, it's still a deal IF you actually run it. That's not even talking about new subsystems specifically developed for this module. Unless of course you don't value your time and/or your time is virtually worthless.

Normally an adventure path module is $30, but you have 3-6 of those in a path. And if you already own the PDFs, you get a discount on the Paizo site (the FVTT module then only costs $70).

And while you can do some import work from other sources like D&D beyond and certain PF2e adventures, what's imported doesn't compare imho to what these FVTT modules offer. But there are of course excellent free battlemaps, so why pay anything for battlemaps with that mentality.

There are two reasons why I buy FVTT modules:
#1 They show what can be done with the system (both the RPG side and with FVTT).
#2 I'm going to use me and they'll save me a LOT of time.

Sidenote: Whole Kingmaker pdf collection (+other stuff) is in a Humble Bundle for $30 (more if you want the computer game and/or you want to PF1e bestiary for Kingmaker): Humble RPG Bundle: Pathfinder Kingmaker Bundle from Paizo Inc.

 

[LordEntrails]

That is not correct info.
The Paizo PF2e Kingmaker adventure path costs $99 in physical form (even just the PDF is $50):
paizo.com - Pathfinder Kingmaker Adventure Path The Foundry VTT marketplace price is $115 for the Kingmaker module ($98 on sale right now).

Kingmaker is $70 on Demiplane and $99 on Fantasy Grounds. All before sales, therefore should be compared with the $115 price on Foundry. All much less expensive than on Foundry.

The difference being that IF you run it physically you would also need battlemaps (3x $30) and tokens/pawns ($60 OOP).

3 battle maps do not cost $30. Or they should not from any reasonable source. And $60 worth of tokens/pawns should get you tens of thousands of such assets, not a few dozen.

Mike Schley charges $30 for his DMG map bundle which includes 17 maps. His maps are usually ~$3/ea when bought individually. Jared Blando charges even less. There is no way the maps added to this bundle are more valuable than Mike's or Jared's. Kris McDermott's, a less well know professional cartographer, last Kickstarter had 2500+ non-AI maps for AU$25 (about $16 USD). For another AU$15 dollars you could get ~5000 tokens/assets. Or you can get thousands of tokens AND an entire map making program with Campaign Cartographer 3+ for $45.

What these FVTT modules offer is a complete prepared experience for you as DM. Don't forget that Kingmaker is a 640 page adventure path for PF2e, converting that into a module up to that kind of quality would take many, many hours (hundreds). Even if you don't care for the sound/music, it's still a deal IF you actually run it. That's not even talking about new subsystems specifically developed for this module. Unless of course you don't value your time and/or your time is virtually worthless.

I get the work that has gone into it. But it's not less work than the FG version and FG costs less and includes a free PDF. It's not a deal and trying to claim I don't value the work that has been put into it is insulting.

Normally an adventure path module is $30, but you have 3-6 of those in a path. And if you already own the PDFs, you get a discount on the Paizo site (the FVTT module then only costs $70).

Yep, Paizo does this with FG too. And maybe Demiplane, not sure. This Paizo sync is nothing special to Foundry.

And while you can do some import work from other sources like D&D beyond and certain PF2e adventures, what's imported doesn't compare imho to what these FVTT modules offer. But there are of course excellent free battlemaps, so why pay anything for battlemaps with that mentality.

I'm not comparing to free battlemaps. I'm comparing to commercial battlemap prices from perhaps the premier fantasy battlemap makers in the world. Charging 3-4 times what the premier map makers charge is outrageously expensive.

I get that you love Foundry and want to defend anything and everything they do. But step back and look at this objectively. This is not something they've done that benefits the Foundry community, and it's pretty obviously the Foundry community is not being treated well in this one instance.

 

[Velderan]

Kingmaker is $70 on Demiplane and $99 on Fantasy Grounds. All before sales, therefore should be compared with the $115 price on Foundry. All much less expensive than on Foundry.

3 battle maps do not cost $30. Or they should not from any reasonable source. And $60 worth of tokens/pawns should get you tens of thousands of such assets, not a few dozen.

Mike Schley charges $30 for his DMG map bundle which includes 17 maps. His maps are usually ~$3/ea when bought individually. Jared Blando charges even less. There is no way the maps added to this bundle are more valuable than Mike's or Jared's. Kris McDermott's, a less well know professional cartographer, last Kickstarter had 2500+ non-AI maps for AU$25 (about $16 USD). For another AU$15 dollars you could get ~5000 tokens/assets. Or you can get thousands of tokens AND an entire map making program with Campaign Cartographer 3+ for $45.

I get the work that has gone into it. But it's not less work than the FG version and FG costs less and includes a free PDF. It's not a deal and trying to claim I don't value the work that has been put into it is insulting.


Yep, Paizo does this with FG too. And maybe Demiplane, not sure. This Paizo sync is nothing special to Foundry.

I'm not comparing to free battlemaps. I'm comparing to commercial battlemap prices from perhaps the premier fantasy battlemap makers in the world. Charging 3-4 times what the premier map makers charge is outrageously expensive.

I get that you love Foundry and want to defend anything and everything they do. But step back and look at this objectively. This is not something they've done that benefits the Foundry community, and it's pretty obviously the Foundry community is not being treated well in this one instance.

You compared the costs of a hardcover book to the Foundry module, so @Cergorach was mentioning the additional costs for physical including the 3 flip-mats which are $30 each on Paizo's site. You can probably find them cheaper elsewhere like Noble Knight or Amazon but substitute that price and you're still adding to the cost of a hardcover book. Now add in the Kingdom management screen and tracker, the Pawn box, the Companion Guide, the Map Folio and you're well above the cost of the Foundry module.

Compare it to the Fantasy Grounds offering if you want and that's fair, but you are the one who said the module is 60% more expensive than a hardcover book while ignoring all the additional material available physically you would need to buy to get the same stuff.

 

[Golden age Superhero]

I really don't like Roll20 but it's about the only VTT that people want to use. I really prefer Owlbear Rodeo.

 

[MNblockhead]

I really don't like Roll20 but it's about the only VTT that people want to use. I really prefer Owlbear Rodeo.

What game are you running? First, as DM you should use the VTT you are comfortable with and most enjoy. You'll run better games. Obviously, if this is a hang up your players have then you have to decide whether to compromise or find other players. From a player perspective, I respect the DMs time, money, and comfort. Seems weird to tell them what game to run. That said, I propably wouldn't be interested in playing D&D or WFRP4e more TOTM with just voice like on Discord, Zoom, or Google Meet. I like more tactical combats. But I am happy with D&D Beyond maps and would be fine with Owlbear Rodeo. I don't expect or need dynamic lighting and automatic fog or war reveal. It is nice but I can live without it.

 

[Nebulous]

I really don't like Roll20 but it's about the only VTT that people want to use. I really prefer Owlbear Rodeo.

I hear people say this all the time, but I don't understand it personally. I have used Roll20 since 2020 and I love it. I don't like messing with the API scripts much, but I only really use one or two now. Roll20 is stable, it has never crashed on us, I don't have to configure anything, I don't update anything, I have never run out of storage space, and every image and map and sound effect I have uploaded the past 5 years (which are in the thousands now) are instantly transferrable between any game. I have special effects for spells and about 5 Monster Manuals and everything can be dragged and dropped, and if I want to edit an NPC it is easy. I have gotten so used to the system that I can fix any hiccup within seconds in-game. It is as comfortable as a glove, but it was a part-time job for a while to get to that point. I love the bells and whistles Foundry offers, which look way better than Roll20, but it seems like updates can shatter modules until the creator updates them, if they update them. And as tricky as it was to learn Roll20, Foundry is even harder.

That said, from what I have heard the 2024 5.5 character sheets are a disaster, and it's something like that would push me to Foundry later, or to Wizards VTT if that ever surfaces (and is not a total gimmick to buy armor sets and such, which I expect it will be, like an MMO). But Roll20 works great for non-D&D games too, and since I already know the system I don't have to relearn anything, and all the assets are already uploaded.

I don't know anything at all about Owlbear Rodeo, but I suspect it is more minimalist and some people don't like bells and whistles, so that works for them. I do like bells and whistles. I wish the bells and whistles in Roll20 were more prevalent, and if it looked like a videogame with lightning bolts flashing I'd be peachy.

 

[LordEntrails]

You compared the costs of a hardcover book to the Foundry module, so @Cergorach was mentioning the additional costs for physical including the 3 flip-mats which are $30 each on Paizo's site. You can probably find them cheaper elsewhere like Noble Knight or Amazon but substitute that price and you're still adding to the cost of a hardcover book. Now add in the Kingdom management screen and tracker, the Pawn box, the Companion Guide, the Map Folio and you're well above the cost of the Foundry module.

Compare it to the Fantasy Grounds offering if you want and that's fair, but you are the one who said the module is 60% more expensive than a hardcover book while ignoring all the additional material available physically you would need to buy to get the same stuff.

Sure, my initial comparison to the hardcover was in error. But your justifications are still off and I gave you a detailed reason why.

Flip mats are NOT the same as digital map files. Even if I ever thought a Paizo flip mat was worth anywhere near what they charge, just because the image is the same I would never pay for a digital image the same amount I would pay for a flip mat. Go look at Mike Schley and Jared Blando's work. That's a fair comparison to the value of the digital maps. And, the flip mats are OPTIONAL if you buy hardcover, they are not optional on Foundry.

IMO adding capability like the Kingdom Management screen to Foundry is, IMO, part of the cost of the conversion and not something folks should be paying for. FG doesn't charge folks for adding capability to support modules.

But, the biggest thing is why bundle all the crap together? It's the same thing a car dealer does when they add in mandatory floor mats and undercoat protection at 5 times the market value. It's a crap business practice, even if a company you like does it.

Look, it you think the price is fair and worth it, then buy it. I don't and I gave you detailed reason why I think its overpriced. (And it's not the only example on the new marketplace).

 

[Velderan]

Sure, my initial comparison to the hardcover was in error. But your justifications are still off and I gave you a detailed reason why.

Flip mats are NOT the same as digital map files. Even if I ever thought a Paizo flip mat was worth anywhere near what they charge, just because the image is the same I would never pay for a digital image the same amount I would pay for a flip mat. Go look at Mike Schley and Jared Blando's work. That's a fair comparison to the value of the digital maps. And, the flip mats are OPTIONAL if you buy hardcover, they are not optional on Foundry.

IMO adding capability like the Kingdom Management screen to Foundry is, IMO, part of the cost of the conversion and not something folks should be paying for. FG doesn't charge folks for adding capability to support modules.

But, the biggest thing is why bundle all the crap together? It's the same thing a car dealer does when they add in mandatory floor mats and undercoat protection at 5 times the market value. It's a crap business practice, even if a company you like does it.

Look, it you think the price is fair and worth it, then buy it. I don't and I gave you detailed reason why I think its overpriced. (And it's not the only example on the new marketplace).

You seem to be confusing me for someone else because I don't believe you've ever given me a detailed reason for anything since this is your first response to me. I also don't get how you assume I like Foundry as a company from my previous posts saying I like their VTT.

 

[LordEntrails]

ou seem to be confusing me for someone else because I don't believe you've ever given me a detailed reason for anything since this is your first response to me.

Not directly to you, but in this thread and specifically in the conversation you jumped into by quoting. If you're going to jump into a conversation, then I'm going to expect you to have read the previous posts in that discussion.