What was Gandalf's XP level?

[Celebrim]

The only thing that kept Gandolf/Olorin from resolving the whole mess himself was his honor. He had the power to destroy all the armies of Mordor...

I'm really not sure that that was true. Certainly Gandalf kept his power cloaked most of the time, but there are certainly times when he seems to fully display it - for example during the attack by the phantom wolves before Redhorn gate. And I very much get the impression that Gandalf often finds himself in 'touch and go' situations on his various adventures. One thing is for certain, if Gandalf had the power to destroy all the armies of Mordor, then Saruman likely would have also possessed this degree of power and he had no qualms about using it.

His job was to guide the free races - mostly man - and to limit the interference of other supernatural threats until the free races had grown enough to resolve the situation themselves.

It was certainly his job, but that doesn't mean that any single Maiar would have had the ability to contest with Sauron certainly or even necessarily his servants directly. The fact of the matter is that Sauron was very great indeed even among the Maiar, and as a captain of war had few equals. Even one of the Valar - say even Orome - would I think have been hard pressed to defeat Sauron or his servants in single contest with Sauron on his home ground. Sauron was after all the chief of the Captains of Morgoth, the Lord of Werewolves, and was presumably superior or at least equal in rank to Gothmog Lord of the Balrogs.

The Balrog of Moria was one of those supernatural threats, but even then he had to disguise his use of power until he was beyond the observance of witnesses so that they could find the strength within themselves to continue on. Had he revealed his full power in front of the Fellowship, they would have been too tempted to just rely on Gandolf to do everything for them thinking they were just superfluous.

I honestly do not think Gandalf was just monkeying around with the Balrog. The Balrog was after all his peer, albiet a corrupt and evil one - equally the vassal of Morgoth as he himself was the vassal of Varda. Afterall, the Balrog does kill Gandalf, and kill him dead - requiring the direct intervention of the Valar to heal his spirit and restore his flesh. I do not think that Gandalf would have chosen to get himself killed at this time if he thought there was anything he could do, and I certainly don't think his intention was to get pulled down into the abyss.

The other Maiar could have used the ring to destroy Sauron if they were strong enough to resist his seductive presence and dominating power, but none of the Maiar who were allowed to walk Middle Earth were that powerful.

By Gandalf's own estimation, and he was wise enough to know, if he had taken the ring he could have destroyed Sauron's armies and defeated Sauron. Olorin was the chief of the vassals of Varda, the Angel of Wisdom, and is one of the few Maia whose name is mentioned in the Valaquenta. Sauron as chief of the vassals of Morgoth was certainly more powerful as Morgoth was more powerful than Varda, but Gandalf's no slouch. I find it odd that you think that Gandalf without the ring could defeat Saurons armies alone, but that with the ring could not manage to defeat Sauron. I do agree that most mortals that were tempted to face Sauron with the ring were decieved and could not have resisted him, but Gandalf is no mere mortal and is might even among the Maiar. Gandalf and Sauruman certainly could have defeated Sauron with the ring. Galadriel likely could have (she was Feanor's sister). Aragorn could make a valiant if ultimately doomed attempt, and anyone of less power likely would have certainly failed.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Here's my version of a moderately low-level Fellowship, as originally posted on the MEd20 site. With a few minor modifications, in my mind there's no reason you can't do Middle Earth with D&D rules.

THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

This is a conversion of the characters of the Lord of the Rings into D&D stats, using the assumption that since Middle Earth is a relatively low-magic world, the best way to simulate it is with low-level characters.

1. RACES

Hobbits: As D&D Halflings (except with big, hairy feet)

Dwarves: As D&D Dwarves

Elves:

Noldor: As Grey elves, with half-celestial temple

Sindar: As High elves, with half-celestial template

Wood elves: As D&D elves

Men:

Rohrrim/Gondorian: As D&D humans

Numenoreans: As D&D half-elves, with the extra feat and skills of a human

Gnomes: non-existent

Half-orcs: as NPCs only (Saurman’s Uruk-hai)

2. THE FELLOWSHIP

These stats represent the Fellowship at approximately their departure from Rivendell.

Gandalf the Grey: Male Human Wizard 8; CR 8; Medium Humanoid (Human); HD 8d4+8; hp 33; Init +5; Spd 30 ft.; AC 11; Atk +5 melee (1d6+1, quarterstaff +1), +5 melee (1d8+2, longsword +2); AL NG; SV Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +8; Str 10, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 20, Wis 15, Cha 16; Height 5' 11", weight 155#

Skills and Feats: Craft (Alchemy) +11, Concentration +10, Heal +3, Intimidate +4, Intuit Direction +4, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (nature) +12, Knowledge (Middle Earth) +16, Scry +16, Spellcraft +16; Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword), Spell Mastery (daylight, pyrotechnics, knock, comprehend languages)

Spells per day: 4/6/4/4/3

Spells prepared: 0- light, mage hand, dancing lights x2; 1- alarm, charm person, expeditious retreat, feather fall, message, comprehend languages; 2- pyrotechnics, knock, arcane lock, daylight; 3- dispel magic, protection from elements, suggestion, tongues; 4- detect scrying, minor creation, shout

Possessions: Gandalf’s staff, Glamdring (see below)


Aragorn: Male Numernorean Ranger 6; CR 6; Medium Humanoid (Numenorean); HD 6d10+6; hp 52; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 15; Atk +12/+7 melee (1d8+6, longsword +3), +7/+2 ranged (1d6, shortbow); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +4; Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18; Height 6', weight 180#
Skills and Feats: Animal Empathy +7, Concentration +4, Diplomacy +6, Heal +13, Hide +6, Intuit Direction +6, Knowledge (nature) +6, Move Silently +6, Ride +8, Search +4, Spot +7, Wilderness Lore +11; Combat Reflexes, Leadership, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Heal), Track, Favored Enemy (Goblinoids +2, Undead +1)

Spells per day: 2/0

Spells prepared: 1- Pass without trace, alarm

Possessions: masterwork chain shirt, Anduril (see below), Shortbow & 20 arrows, Elfstone


Legolas: Male Elf (Wood) Fighter 4; CR 4; Medium Humanoid (Elf); HD 4d10; hp 31; Init +4; Spd 30 ft.; AC 16; Atk +8 melee (1d4+1, dagger), +9 ranged (1d8+1, masterwork mighty composite longbow (12 str)); AL CG; SV Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2; Str 12, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10; Height 5', weight 100#

Skills and Feats: Balance +7, Climb +3, Hide +5, Jump +4, Move Silently +5, Ride +9, Swim +3, Tumble +5, Wilderness Lore +3; Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse (Dagger)

Possessions: Leather Armor, Mighty Composite Longbow +1, Dagger


Gimli: Male Dwarf (Hill) Fighter 4; CR 4; Medium Humanoid (Dwarf); HD 4d10+8; hp 41; Init +0; Spd 15 ft.; AC 15; Atk +9 melee (1d8+4, masterwork battleaxe); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1; Str 16, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 9; Height 4' 5", weight 140#

Skills and Feats: Climb +2, Craft (stonework) • +5, Jump +3, Profession (smith) +1; Endurance, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (Battleaxe)

Possessions: Masterwork chainmail; masterwork battleaxe


Boromir: Male Human Fighter 4; CR 4; Medium Humanoid (Human); HD 4d10+4; hp 38; Init +1; Spd 30 ft.; AC 16; Atk +8 melee (1d8+3, longsword); AL LN; SV Fort +7, Ref +2, Will +0; Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 13; Height 5' 10", weight 180#

Skills and Feats: Climb +5, Diplomacy +2, Intimidate +2, Jump +7, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) +1, Ride +8; Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Cleave, Quick Draw, Toughness, Weapon Focus (Longsword)

Possessions: Masterwork Studded Leather Armor, masterwork shield, longsword, horn of Gondor


Frodo Baggins: Male Hobbit Fighter/Aristocrat 1/1; CR 2; Small Humanoid (Halfling); HD 1d10+1d8+6; hp 27; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 18; Atk +3 melee (1d6+1, short sword +1); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +6; Str 10, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12; Height 3' 6", weight 40#

Skills and Feats: Appraise +4, Climb +2, Diplomacy +5, Hide +6, Knowledge (The Shire) +6, Listen +5, Move Silently +4, Perform +5, Ride +5, Spot +3, Swim +1, Wilderness Lore +2; Iron Will, Toughness

Possessions: Sting (see below), +1 mithral shirt


Samwise Gamgee: Male Hobbit Fighter/Commoner 1/1; CR 2; Small Humanoid (Halfling); HD 1d10+1d4+4; hp 16; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 14; Atk +4 melee (1d6+2, short sword +1); AL LG; SV Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2; Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10; Height 3' 4", weight 45#

Skills and Feats: Climb +4, Knowledge (Herb Lore) +1, Profession (Gardener) +5, Ride +3, Use Rope +4; Dodge, Great Fortitude

Possessions: Barrowblade, padded shirt


Meriadoc Brandybuck: Male Hobbit Rogue/Aristocrat 1/1; CR 2; Small Humanoid (Halfling); HD 1d8+1d6+2; hp 16; Init +3; Spd 20 ft.; AC 15; Atk +3 melee (1d6+2, short sword +1); AL LG; SV Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 12; Height 4', weight 55#

Skills and Feats: Appraise +2, Diplomacy +6, Hide +9, Intuit Direction +1, Knowledge (The Shire) +2, Listen +3, Perform +4, Ride +5, Tumble +5, Wilderness Lore +2; Endurance

Possessions: Barrowblade, padded shirt


Peregrin Took: Male Hobbit Fighter/Aristocrat 1/1; CR 2; Small Humanoid (Halfling); HD 1d10+1d8+2; hp 20; Init +2; Spd 20 ft.; AC 14; Atk +4 melee (1d6+2, short sword +1); AL LG; SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +2; Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 10; Height 4', weight 60#

Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +1, Handle Animal +2, Hide +7, Knowledge (The Shire) +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Perform +1, Ride +4, Spot +1, Wilderness Lore +2; Dodge, Toughness

Possessions: Barrowblade, padded shirt


Post Campaign, I would put the Fellowship at the following levels:

Gandalf: Wiz 11

Aragorn: Rgr 9 (+cloak of Lothlorien, Palantir of Orthanc)

Boromir: deceased Ftr 6

Legolas: Ftr 7 (+ cloak of Lothlorien)

Gimli: Ftr 7 (+cloak of Lothlorien)

Frodo: Ari1/Ftr4 (+cloak of Lothlorien, phial of Galadriel)

Sam: Com1/Ftr4 (+cloak of Lothlorien, rope of Lothlorien)

Merry: Ari1/Rog2/Ftr2 (+Cloak of Lothlorien, masterwork studded leather, masterwork small steel shield, horn of Rohan)

Pippin: Ari1/Ftr4 (+Cloak of Lothlorien, masterwork chainmail, masterwork small steel shield)


3. OTHER ALLIES

Bilbo: LG hobbit Ari 2/Rogue 4 (w/ ranks in Perform: poetry and ballad)

Elrond: As Numenorean; NG Cleric 9

Glorfindel: LG Noldor Paladin 9

Galadriel: NG Noldor Sorcerer 11

Theoden: LN Human Fighter 6

Eomer: LG Human Fighter 5

Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth: LG Human Paladin 5

Faramir: NG Human Ranger 6


4. ENEMIES

Orcs: As D&D goblins

Orcs (Uruks of Mordor): As D&D hobgoblins

Orcs (Uruk-Hai): As D&D half-orcs

Trolls: As D&D Ogre, but Fort Save DC 15 each round in sunlight or turn to stone

Shelob: Half-fiendish huge spider, advanced to 8 HD

Smaug: Adult red dragon

Balrog: Large fiendish fire elemental Sor 4

Sauron: CE fiendish ghost Human Sorcerer 13

Ringwraiths: As D&D Wraiths


5. MAGIC ITEMS


Sting: +1 keen shortsword

Mithral Shirt: +1 moderate fortification chain shirt

Phial of Galadriel: casts light 3/day, daylight 1/day on command

Glamdring, Orcrist: +2 orc-bane longswords

Anduril: +3 flaming longsword

Elfstone: Gives effective +2 to Charisma-based checks when edaling with good-aligned creatures

Gandalf’s staff: +1 quarterstaff, casts light on command, 3/day

Palantir: as crystal ball; Numenorean may use as a rogue with class-level ranks in Use Magic Device

Barrowblade: +1 short-sword

Black Arrow: +2 dragon-bane arrow

Cloak of Lothlorien: As cloak of elvenkind

Rings of Power: cursed ring of ethereal jaunt; provides Listen +4 and Spot +4; make Will save once per decade or lose 1 point of Con, reduction to 0 Con and character becomes a ringwraith under the control of the maker of the ring.

Elven Ring: As ring of elemental command (air, water, or fire)

The One Ring: as Ring of Power, bearer can command ringwraiths with a charisma check of DC 15

Rope of Lothlorien: as rope of climbing

Horn of Rohan/Gondor: The sound of this horn carries for up to 1 league. When sounded, all allies within 100’ receive a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls and saves.

 

[Salthorae]

I don't see why Gandalf has to have levels in any particular class. They call Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast were labeled wizards, but many Celestials in the D&D game have the ability to use arcane abilities, fiends do as well.

Fiends and Celestials in D&D have swords they wield in combat too. I see no reason to go giving Gandalf levels, just call him a high ECL celestial with a few spell-like abilities...

 

[Steverooo]

Gandalf was a 60th level Maia Bard. Sauron was 100th level, but it was split between Maia, Fighter, Bard, Wizard, Werewolf, and possibly Assassin, as well. And that's without Prestige Classes!...

 

[vulcan_idic]

The Wisest of the Maiar

Based on the account of the Silmarilion I would have to classify Gandalf as at least a Celestial of some stripe and perhaps even a demigod.

In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.

This selection seels to put Eru, the One, pretty much on par with Lord Ao of the Forgotten Realms - an over deity whom the other deities (the ones who mortals know more or less) serve as vassals.

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.

This section lists what in D&D terminology would be the Greater Deities of the pantheon of middle earth, the most powerful of the spirits called the Ainur.

With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar; for though it is otherwise in Aman, in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men.

Here we find mention of the Maiar, which would seem to fill the role in D&D terminology of Intermediate and Lesser Dieties, and other Celestial beings who aid them.

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.

Here we have mention of a specific Maiar of great wisdom, and learned from the Valar Nienna pity and patience.

These are the quotes I could find online. It has been awhile since I read it and connot find online the quotes to back up my further assertions, but I do believe them to be accurate as well. The wisest of the Maiar, Olórin, was also an Istari... a spirit who came and lived among men to aid them, teach them, and help them protect themselves from Maiar who had fallen from grace, such as Sauron. As part of their creed they decided that they would not act on behalf of Men but help them help themselves. Thus it was that the Maiar Olórin, also known as Gandalf of the Istari, came to aid and guide men, elves, dwarves... and hobbits in their fight against the great Enemy. This is why I would make him a celestial at the least and perhaps a demigod or lesser deity disguised as a mortal, much like the scenario commonly found in Greek Mythology where a Deity, such as Athena, disguises themselves as a mortal to aid the hero on their quest.

 

[Thanee]

Here's my version of a moderately low-level Fellowship, as originally posted on the MEd20 site. With a few minor modifications, in my mind there's no reason you can't do Middle Earth with D&D rules.

With d20 rules maybe, but not with D&D rules.
You can make an approximation, like what you have written up in D&D, many of D&D is based on Tolkiens work after all, but it would not be close enough to LotR to call it that, unless you make some really extensive changes.

Anyways... some little comments, which came to mind, when browsing over it:

4. ENEMIES

Orcs: As D&D goblins
Orcs (Uruks of Mordor): As D&D hobgoblins
Orcs (Uruk-Hai): As D&D half-orcs

Hmm... aren't hobgoblins stronger than half-orcs? Generally the idea looks right, but Uruk-Hai should definitely be the strongest of the bunch.

Balrog: Large fiendish fire elemental Sor 4

So, Aragorn would have no trouble with this one... alone?

This one should be a wee bit more powerful...

Ringwraiths: As D&D Wraiths

So, all those magic weapons can simply destroy them?
And Frodo could command them with the One Ring!?

I don't think it's that simple to just call them Wraiths.

Mithral Shirt: +1 moderate fortification chain shirt

mithril shirt not chain shirt

Bye
Thanee

 

[cmanos]

Dig out your MERP roleplaying game and check out his stats.

Just remember, in MERP, anytime you do something for the first time you get 5x experience for it....so the firxt tile you kill Gandalf you'll get (Gandalf XP)x5

 

[WizarDru]

As far as the Ring was concerned, none of the Istari could have handled it without being swayed into Sauron's power. Sauron was one of the strongest if not the strongest of the Maiar.

Just so we're clear, when I was referring to Gandalf having a ring, I was referring to Narya.

 

[Gray Mouser]

High or low level, why didn't he ever cast Magic Missile? Should have been a no-brainer.

Maybe it wasn't in his spell book. He seemd to prefer pyrotechnics.

Gray Mouser

 

[Cheiromancer]

He also cast Hold Portal once, IIRC.