What was "player skill"?

[Maggan]

Hi!

I've been reading some old modules, like Slavelords of the Undercity and Tomb of Horrors and in the introductions to these adventures it is noted that (paraphrased) "only highly skilled players" should expect to master the challenges presented.

I didn't play D&D or AD&D back then, so I'm wondering what the players were supposed to be good at? Rules mastery? Strategy? Tactics? Knowledge of monsters? Creative thinking?

And how did this show when playing the game?

Basically, what did the skilled players do, that the not so skilled players didn't do?

Cheers!

/Maggan

 

[Numion]

I didn't play D&D or AD&D back then, so I'm wondering what the players were supposed to be good at? Rules mastery? Strategy? Tactics? Knowledge of monsters? Creative thinking?

Those + metagaming, I think.

 

[The Forsaken One]

Maximized application and knowledge of rules goes a long way. Metagaming.. meh a bit is never bad but it gets too much too fast. (though it helps ).

Nah but mostly team play I guess, and picking the best feats and spells for a level. You can make two different wizards and fighters depending on feats and spells. One of them is going to suck ass in a grind game and the other will shine.

The "higher" level of play that is required mostly means bigger badder monsters for the games level so you need powergamers and maybe some munchin to compensate so they can cut the challenges set for them.

If you have someone who picks a bard and an assload of RP feats hes prolly toast in a game where the challenges are properly suited for a min maxed out Wizard and his Psion companion .

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I'm going to try to answer by example: Tomb of Horrors.

By 21st Century standards, ToH is an absolute meatgrinder. People with many years of experience at later systems will often get wiped in there, particularly if they're heavy roleplayers.

The philosophy when ToH was written was very different... quite often, people didn't bother to give first level characters names. (You'd call the character "Jerry's dwarf" or "Sandra's fighter.") And when they did get names, they were often sequential. (Okay, Erac's dead; let's call this one "Erac's brother." And when he dies, I'll move on to "Erac's cousin"...)

The way a 1978 party would've approached ToH was like this: Use a monster summoning spell. (Up pop a bunch of orcs.) Send the orcs in ahead and see how they get killed. Once they're dead, we'll have more information -- but just to be sure, we'll reanimate them as zombies and send them in again. Nobody opens a door or walks into a room or does anything at all unless a minion's been there first. Once the minions have figured out what's safe to touch, we can send one character (not a cleric! probably a thief) into the room to scout it for other traps. If the thief gets attacked he runs back to the party with the monster (we only fight in areas that have been cleared). If he dies we drag him back and raise him, but if he declares it safe, we might move the party forward...

 

[Numion]

I'm going to try to answer by example: Tomb of Horrors.

By 21st Century standards, ToH is an absolute meatgrinder. People with many years of experience at later systems will often get wiped in there, particularly if they're heavy roleplayers.

The philosophy when ToH was written was very different... quite often, people didn't bother to give first level characters names. (You'd call the character "Jerry's dwarf" or "Sandra's fighter.") And when they did get names, they were often sequential. (Okay, Erac's dead; let's call this one "Erac's brother." And when he dies, I'll move on to "Erac's cousin"...)

That's what I meant by being good at metagaming. You, as a player, have to acknowledge you're playing ToH (or whatever) and use that to guide your characters actions. If you RP and do what your character would do, you'd lose.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

That's what I meant by being good at metagaming. You, as a player, have to acknowledge you're playing ToH (or whatever) and use that to guide your characters actions. If you RP and do what your character would do, you'd lose.

That wouldn't even have occurred to us.

When we were playing Panzerblitz and we were the Russians, we didn't just walk our infantry into the machinegun fire, we played tactically and used the available cover to our advantage. When we were playing Squad Leader and we were the British, we used to mass our tanks together, never mind how they did it historically. In fact, in any wargame, we played to win.

The idea that D&D wasn't a wargame hadn't even begun to permeate our consciousness.

Roleplaying was when you said "I do this" instead of "My dwarf does this."

 

[Warlock75]

In fact, in any wargame, we played to win.

The idea that D&D wasn't a wargame hadn't even begun to permeate our consciousness.

Roleplaying was when you said "I do this" instead of "My dwarf does this."

Well said.

 

[Squire James]

I think most of the old modules, when talking about "player skill", were talking about teamwork skills more than anything else. The only way a group of level 9 characters is going to defeat 22 hill giants, a cloud giant, and the hill giant chief is through sound teamwork and a good grasp of battle tactics.

I've noted a marked decline in teamwork and tactics in my later games. A dragon the PC's should have been able to defeat resulted in a TPK last week. The fact that they knew they were fighting a dragon days ahead of time should have been a big advantage, and the fact that he had some hobgoblin minions and a pit trap should not have thrown their plan TOO far out of whack!

 

[Grazzt]

Basically, what did the skilled players do, that the not so skilled players didn't do?

Cheers!

/Maggan

For one, skilled players knew when to run from an encounter or retire from a dungeon for the day/nite to rest and recover.

Also- like Squire said above...teamwork, tactics. Each character knew their role. For example, thieves didn't charge headlong into battle and stand toe-to-toe with the bad guys like fighters did (not saying all thieves/rogues do that now...ive just seen a lot more do it in later editions than they did way back in the day).

 

[diaglo]

Slavelords is a bunch of tournament modules tied together for homeplay.

when you went to Cons. Gen Con in particular you could play in Events. they had player levels as well as character levels for play in these events. a n00b player getting a 7th lvl PC is gonna get the whole party killed in a high skilled event.