What was "player skill"?

I do think my statements are accurate characterizations of the facts.
I think your statements are inaccurate mischaracterizations of the facts.

Do you disagree that 3E scenario design emphasizes a "balanced schedule of CRs"?
I disagree.

First, AD&D1 had encounter design guidelines, too – monster level and dungeon level charts. And AD&D1 adventures had level ranges right on the cover – Slavepits of the Undercity was designed for characters level 4-7 – the encounters in that adventure were “balanced” for ~6 PCs of 4th to 7th level. Everything in that module was within the capabilities of 4th to 7th level characters to handle.

Second, D&D3 merely gives some guidelines for DMs to make adventures within the capabilities of the PCs, based on the characters’ levels. There is no “balanced schedule of CRs”.

Essentially, D&D3 does the same thing that AD&D1 did, just in a more explicit and detailed manner to make the tool easier for a DM to actually notice and use.

There are examples of both D&D3 and AD&D1 adventures with overwhelming challenges and easy encounters for the given level range.

Do you disagree with my assertion that this design philosophy encourages an attitude of "we can kill everything in this dungeon"?
I disagree.

That attitude can, will, and has led the death of many, many D&D3 and AD&D1 characters. A pack of AD&D1 7th-level characters going into Slavepits of the Undercity could have this attitude as much as a group of D&D3 10th-level characters going into Heart of Nightfang Spire.

Do you disagree that the great mass of rules is an effective way of telling people "you can't do that"? "(because the rules say so)" And that stifles creative solutions to challenges and encounters?
I disagree.

The “great mass of rules” is an effective way of showing people “how to do that” and relieves the DM of the trouble of having to come up with ad hoc rules for creative solutions to challenges and encounters.

Quasqueton
 

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1E PHB had a section called "Successful Adventures", basically a primer on how to game (p. 107-109). Here are some highlights (pretty dungeon-centric):

- Set an objective and pre-plan before each gaming session.
- Survival is dependent on group action and team spirit.
- Buy the right equipment, hire henchmen to guard camp/ mounts/ exit.
- Have set formations for hallways, opening doors, etc.
- Mapping is important to get back to the exit.
- Avoid unnecessary encounters.
- If you get lost, objective immediately becomes "get out".
- Cooperation assumes mutual trust and confidence.

So, a lot of it is based on teamwork (which was said before). Some of it is minding the details (basic equipment, guarding mounts), which nowadays some people prefer to gloss over. The last item would contradict making inter-party conflicts for roleplay purposes, which a lot of people like to do now.

It's in the context of lots of ways of getting killed. In particular, tournament play (which was the rationale for AD&D), in which the expectation is "most everyone gets killed", and only the elite who survive get identified as the winner of the event. So, all these are details which increase your chances of maybe surviving an event like S1 or A1.
 

Quasqueton said:
The “great mass of rules” is an effective way of showing people “how to do that” and relieves the DM of the trouble of having to come up with ad hoc rules for creative solutions to challenges and encounters.

Quasqueton

The above is what I dislike most about 3e. What fun is looking up a rule? I did enough of that in school. Ad-hoc calls are what makes dming fun.
 




Sanguinemetaldawn said:
What I posted previously is not intended to be incendiary. I am willing to listen to arguments that might change my views, but those views are based on the personal experience of having to change 3E D&D rules in the players favor so they can attempt a unique solution to a problem, and having to massively re-write 3E material so that it is fun and exciting.

Well, yes but that's not what I, as the OP, wanted to discuss. So please, please, please, stay on topic, stay on topic.

EDIT: my plea is extended to the others in this thread who seem to interpret my question as an excuse to dump on another edition. It's not what I asked for, so please ... ???

/M
 
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3.5 hasn't told me what not to do in a long time. It has a whole lot of rules to play out what people might want to do. If someone wants to do something not covered in the rules those rules provide examples for how to deal with things someone wants to do.

Just an example from my last session. The PC's run from some goblins after getting caught (oh my, I've broken another of those rumored restriction by placing goblins in a number far above the CR appropiate number) the last PC is caught between goblins. He wants to feint his way out of it by doing as if he moved into one direction-then running the other. Now how would I have ruled that with a rules light system? With D&D I remembered the tumbling to avoid AoO's rules and just applied the same to bluffing.

Your so called restrictions are guidelines. I've started DMing with 3rd edition and without any expirience as player. If it wasn't for those guidelines I would have been a far worse DM and would have taken far longer to become decent. Now that I'm decent and made my expiriences I can move out of those guidelines, but they still help me gauge the impact of everything I'm doing.

You can always read restrictions and "not to do's" into a RPG set. We call that Rules Lawyering and it's a term from before 3rd edition. At this point I'd want to mention that various 3.5 sources and designers also advise to make ad hok decisions to not disrupt the flow of play and resolve the issue after play. Those same sources also tend to decry ruleslawyers.

We have an open fun group of friends that tends to trust my DMing enough to not always cry for the 100% exact ruling. I'm sure all the people advocating for more ad hoc systems have the same, otherwhise your groups wouldn't want to be DMed that way, right?

If people prefer older/other systems for their gaming that's perfectly fine (I greatly enjoy the recent "glory of OD&D" thread greatly at parts, simply because it's about people enjoying their current RPGing). But the regular decrying of my favored playstyle as inferior is getting on my nerves.

I'm not saying my way is better, I'm just asking people not to call me an idiot for enjoying my style.

Edit: Sorry for getting myself drawn into the whole off-topic thing. After reading something for the xth time in short time it becomes kinda hard to ignore. I'm still to young to be laid back all the time :o .

Anyway, here's some thought to make this post worthwhile to the topic:

I've started with 3rd edition D&D, so I'm not really from "that time", but I guess I understand the mentality behind expecting "skilled players" since I've shared that mentality for some time. There's basically five parts to it:

-Tactical gameplay: Especially prevalent if the DM or designer is a tactician player himself. A tactician player that designs an encounter often can't help but to optimise, to think in the terms of an exciting and challenging combat. If the players in turn are tactical themself, this is both needed (so they don't swipe it and grow bored) and good for the gameplay. If they aren't, well, that can end up pretty badly. Labeling hard adventures as deadly is good. Labeling it made for "skilled players" can be called into question.

-Puzzeling: Puzzels and riddles are still a big part of RPG's for some. By all I know it was far more prevalent in the old days. Setting a hard puzzle into a dungeon could be defined as the prime example of requiering player skill. These days puzzles are generally seen as a thing of personal preference.

-DM expectations/common sense: I guess most DM's had this one happen to them. You place a crittical element with one way to solve it, but you don't worry, cause the solution is obvious. And then all the players get stuck there for a session/all die. The first idea every novice DM gets on this is of course to blame the players or think they have no common sense (In my early years I've called my players stupid for doing some totally reasonable things-and some not very reasonable things that seemed like the only option). Of course back in the old days there where far more novice DMs and expiriences that it indeed isn't much of a matter of player skill as a matter of good design didn't spread as much because people wheren't wired as much. Many of these DM's where designers and so it seemed logical to say that it needed some "skill as player" to look into the DM's/designers mind. These days that kind of design/expectation is frowned uppon.

-Metagaming/rules knowledge/expirience: You check for traps, you know not to touch altairs of evil, you run from big dragons, you know a demilich when you see it and know how to deal with it. This is the kind of stuff a DM/designer that thinks in "player skill" might expect. Basically a experienced player that isn't afraid to use his past experiences even if his PC has no way of really knowing that stuff. The 3.5 DMG officially frowns on metagaming and that's mostly how this stuff is viewed these days.

-Creative problem solving: You know how PC's something do totally crazy "out-there" things that work? How there sometimes is a ocean eleven like plan that works out? When as a DM your own game totally takes you by surprise. Some DMs don't like this (commonly known as control freaks), but for many DM's and more players it's one of the best things in the game. Of course you then beginn to think how to create such situations more often and beginn forcing them. Which of course doesn't work most of the time. Create a impossible subjective and in 95% of the cases it stays impossible. The other 5% had "skilled players". Since these things are dependand on sudden inspiration as much as some kind of skill the notion of forcing it isn't leading far though.

I'm sure there are other notions of "player skill", some looked more favorable uppon and some less these days, but these are the five prime examples I could identify. That two of these are rather disreputable these days, two depend on personal preference and one isn't really a skill puts the whole notion of "player skill" in a bad light. I'm not entirely sure it is such a bad thing, but DMing a rather casual group, I've put the notion aside for now (I still place hard combat encounters, but if the PC's fail tactically, I don't see it as a game failure anymore, but instead as another kind of fun. Like de-equiped 1st PC's on the run from 20 classed goblins-we all had fun with that so far)
 
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The PH section describes skilled play in this sense, and see EGG's Roleplaying Mastery for more detail.
Numion said:
That's what I meant by being good at metagaming. You, as a player, have to acknowledge you're playing ToH (or whatever) and use that to guide your characters actions. If you RP and do what your character would do, you'd lose.
It's not metagaming, because these game considerations exist in the campaign world -- it's in large part designed to facilitate them. Deadly dungeons are known to exist -- hence the given rumours of Acererak's Tomb -- and adventurers prepare for them. It was entirely in character for Robilar to send the orcs in ahead of him!

Playing in character is not an end in itself in this play style, but one consideration among several.
 


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