What was "player skill"?

Hussar said:
And now you lost me. Why are people so incapable of describing the good parts of their chosen game without bashing other games?

I think the intention was to compare and contrast, rather than to bash 3.x.

I think it's quite accurate that 3.x contains much fewer - ah - extremes than the products discussed in this thread. (By "extremes", I mean those bits of the early modules where the DM was told, "If a character does x, then the result is instant death, no ressurection, no saving throw.") The modern viewpoint tends to be that this is unfair and unreasonable.
 

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Hussar said:
The role of the DM was frequently very openly adversarial. I don't think that's an unfair characterization. So, the players had to work together to beat the DM. The DM had almost all the cards - he set the stage, he had time to plan, but the players had the advantage of having six or eight heads working on a problem.

This touches on an issue that has recently come into my game.
It is only in the last several years that I have enountered players saying "this isn't balanced"

I know I sound like a grognard, but in the old days, I never heard a player say that. If we encountered something completely out of our class (which happened quite frequently...so much for the old tables of monsters by level) we would either run, try to negotiate (including wagering stuff in riddling contests), or fight the battle pulling out all the stops and using everything we could think of to win.

When I ran Forge of Fury for my players, I ran the Roper as a straight up encounter, nearly killing 2 characters. They ended up killing it by improvising a stalactite as a thrown weapon, doing damage basically as a giant's hurled boulder, with some bonuses. Up to that point, it was looking like they would loose several characters permanently, if not TPK.

Do you know who came up with that plan?

An old school 1st Ed. player.

And who whined about how it wasn't balanced and was an unfair encounter?

The 3E players.

People are entitled to their own opinions, and maybe their experiences are different from mine, but over an over, in the real world (games I play in and run) I see a major difference between between the old school and the new school in play-skill, and the new school pales to the old.



To re-iterate, my point here isn't to bash.
I am attempting to provide an analysis, based on my real world experience and these are the conclusions I am inescapably drawn to.
I suppose I could restrict myself to only saying nice and complimentary things about 3E, but what would be the point of that, other than to spare the sensitive feelings of some?

Don't get me wrong, 3E did do some good things. Flat footed and touch ACs cleaned up some clunky areas of the previous editions. The universal d20 mechanic for challenge resolution, etc.

The problem IMO, is that it also did some really bad things as well, far outweighing the good of the good things. The bad things affected the entire attitude of the game, the fundamental assumptions of gameplay, impacting player skill among other things.

Basically, when I run 3E, I run it like a 1st edition game, changing rules constantly (much to the distress of the rules lawyers, for whom the rules are sacred or something) and totally disregarding the contemptable notion of game balance, both for the monsters and the PCs.

And its a blast.
The above example of player skill demonstrates why pretty concisely, I think.
 

Sanguinemetaldawn (heck of a name you got there), I've posted my reply to this in a new thread here. If you want to discuss this further we all can carry this on there.
 
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Sanguinemetaldawn said:
I suppose I could restrict myself to only saying nice and complimentary things about 3E, but what would be the point of that, other than to spare the sensitive feelings of some?

Maybe, just maybe, you could consider the benefit of staying a bit more focused on the topic at hand as one point?

Or to take your analysis to a thread of your own.

Your examples of player skill in AD&D are welcome and I enjoy reading about that. The rest ... not so much.

Pretty please?

/M
 

Maggan said:
Maybe, just maybe, you could consider the benefit of staying a bit more focused on the topic at hand as one point?

/M

Right, but the topic is player skill, is it not?

Development of said player skill occurs within the game itself, and it stands to reason that the structure of the game influences that development.

If I understand you correctly, your position is that my statement "3E D&D does not cultivate and develop player skill like 1E did" is out of place in a thread about player skill, along with the accompanying analysis to support the argument.

That seems a rather strange position to take, though certainly one facilitating harmony. In the interest of that harmony, this will be my last post on the topic.



However, I would say that asking about 1E meaning of player skill on 3E boards and not expecting a comparison is rather...hopeful, to say the least.
 

What I posted previously is not intended to be incendiary.
Yet it was.

To re-iterate, my point here isn't to bash.
Yet you did.

And you continue to post incendiary and bashing comments, even when asked by the OP to stop. Isn’t that the definition of a troll? (Not that I'm meaning to call you a troll.)

It seems that the answer to any question about 1E/2E/OD&D is, “D&D3 sucks.” At least that’s where such threads always go. It is an unfortunate aspect of the gamer curmudgeons – they can’t talk about the older editions without insulting the newer. It’s sad.

Quasqueton

[Edited: Because "grognard" is somewhat an ill-defined term, I changed the wording to fit my meaning -- "gamer curmudgeon".]
 
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PapersAndPaychecks said:
Well, I try to talk about old editions without insulting the newer. Where did I fail?
Do you describe yourself as a "grognard"? Most who do use the term for themselves seem to mean it almost like "curmudgeon"*. "The old ways/games were better, and the new ways/games are lesser." If you do not describe yourself as a "grognard", then my comment was not directed at you. It's great that you, too, can talk about one edition without insulting another.

I, myself, started playing D&D in 1980 with BD&D, moving up to AD&D1. I loved those editions, and they still own warm territory in my heart. D&D3 is my current love, but loving the newer does not mean hating the older. Unfortunately, many who love the older feel they must hate the newer (and must constantly proclaim their hate).

Though I prefer the newer for my current play, I do not deride or denigrate the older. In fact, I'm usually the one pointing out all the similarities with the two ages.

I do not describe myself as a "grognard". Nor do I call myself "old school" or "new school". I'm "a D&D player".

Quasqueton

* Note my rewording of the earlier post. Change "grognard" to "gamer curmudgeon".
 
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Sanguinemetaldawn said:
This touches on an issue that has recently come into my game.
It is only in the last several years that I have enountered players saying "this isn't balanced"...

Very nice analysis, SMD. It's well thought out, concise, and much appreciated.
 

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