What was so bad about DMing 3x?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

folks keep cheering the "npcs/monster and PC use different rules" philosophy on the basis that it's lack made 3x "fun to play but horrible to DM". I don't get it. I love to DM, and I am as happy to DM 3x as any other system. The only reasons I don't currently DM are practical. I would rather DM than play any day of the week. (in fact, I skip gamedays when there isn't a slot left for me to run a game in, because I've found that they aren't worth the travel effort if I "only" play.)

What is so bad about DMing 3x, and do you enjoy DMing other systems but not that one? Help me out, because 4e to me is introducing a system I don't like to fix a "problem" I'd never heard of.

I gave up running 3.x on such issues.

NPCs took too long to create, mainly due to magic items. Even using the DMG examples didn't work as they weren't optimized. (NPCs are already gimped even if you optimize their gear.) Anything that reduces the use of magic items will make NPC generation easier. 4e's magic item philosophy looks really simple; I could probably house rule that magic items can only be used by one person (so you don't bother looting NPCs for magic gear, instead looting them for cash). Of course, most NPCs would only have the three magic items (weapon or magical orb/staff/whatever, Cloak of Resistance and Robe/Armor); I don't anticipate filling up the other slots unless the NPC has a theme.

On a related note, I don't believe there's any software that can optimize magic items like a human brain... which is a bit of a shame, as this human wanted to use his brain for something fun.

On another related note, monster treasure was a pain. I used a downloaded utility to do that, which really saved time, but just showed how much treasure was being handed out... vast amounts, and yet never enough.

I liked that, compared to 2e, there were guidelines for how much a PC should have in terms of magic items. Unfortunately, the assumptions were set very high, and it was difficult to remove them. Even XP scaling was difficult; PCs were supposed to accrue treasure at a constant rate, and if you slowed down their XP gain rate, you could theoretically slow down their treasure intake rate. In practice, it didn't work. All you ended up doing was handing out lame magic items (which would be sold anyway).

NPCs were generally too weak and uninteresting; the new warlord class looks like it'll make for awesome NPCs.

Designing encounters was more work than I expected, despite the assistance of CR. An "at CR" encounter is a cakewalk, rather than a challenge. (I consider a 20% loss of resources to be a cakewalk... how do you measure that anyway?) It seems like (especially at higher levels) you're just supposed to throw monsters at the PCs until the spellcasters tap out. I'd rather use fewer, more interesting and more lethal combats, but that overpowered spellcasters even more! I know there are DMs who figured out the trick of many encounters a day, but I don't know any of them! I'm not going to use random encounters, either.

Having said that, I doubt I'll use different rules for PC-classed NPCs. It looks like most of the time-consuming stuff has been reduced. If skills are like SAGA (a breeze when it comes to the math) and magic items come with a convenient table (I'll make one if there isn't), then making an NPC might take me X minutes of coming up with an idea and five minutes for the actual numbering.

I don't know if new monsters are simpler or not. I just hope the math makes more sense (eg no more "unstoppable grappling monsters"). I also hope something is done about treasure. I don't want to deal with a weird encounter like this one:

Two unclassed mindflayers.
Several enslaved grimlocks with 2-4 levels of ranger.

Each grimlock gets more equipment than their masters. Huh? It would make more sense to pool the gear and just give it to the mind flayers, but that's too much work.

Even more painful was designing a thri-kreen pack; a thri-kreen psionicist is going to suck no matter what... and figuring out their gear (for a non-standard creature) was plain tortuous.

I didn't find monsters to be that bad. Giving them classes and templates was often a lot of work (especially when it came to stat boosts) but otherwise wasn't a big deal. I tried to use AC-boosting templates (too many monsters had lame AC scores!) and avoid stat-boosting ones. Ironically, my favorite was the Wild Cohort "template", which I figured out the CR-boosts for and shamelessly used (despite the stat boosts). I even made a Modern version and applied it to dogs, crocodiles, leopards... whatever was needed.

 

[Colmarr]

Well, one issue is the level of detail that some DMs feel obliged by the system to provide to their monsters and NPCs because, well, that's the way it's done in the Monster Manual, the modules and the other official products (to be frank, I'm one of them). So, whenever I create an NPC or monster, I'll spend time [snip]...

Now, I happen to enjoy the process of NPC and monster creation, and I take a craftsman's pride in turning out mathematically correct and thematically appropriate creatures, so this hasn't been a major issue for me, apart from the time (and occasional late nights) needed to prepare an adventure. However, to someone who does not enjoy it, I can see why the current system looks like too much work for too little payoff.

Firelance hit the nail on the head for me.

I LOVE the process of generating monsters and NPCs in 3.x, to the point that I often use it as a time filler while watching TV or lazing around on the weekend. It's a great "brain occupier" for me.

However, while I love doing it, I dislike being made to do it by the rules. And while I love creating an NPC here and an advanced monster there, creating 10-15 in a short space of time for an adventure against humanoids is not my idea of fun.

So, given a choice between 3.x and the (assumed) 4E method of NPC/monster generation, I'll quickly (and gladly) choose 4E.

 

[Gothmog]

To each their own, I guess, but for me issues have been:

--Extensive time building NPCs and choosing equipment (unequipped NPCs go down so fast its pathetic)

--As a corrollary to the above, making NPCs who have the gear to challenge PCs, without dumping outrageous amounts/ overpowered magical loot in their laps.

--High level combat is sloooow. Hey, I got my stuff together, but it only takes one person who doesn't quite get it to slow things down significantly. Spellcasters at high levels start to compound this problem due to the vast number of options available.

--Constant Rules Challenges/Questions: Often games are interrupted for a rules interpretation wherein someone, either the DM or a player is uncertain about an action and whether or not it can be done by the rules. With the glut of combat rules and complexity in 3e, its nearly impossible to know all the rules, and so constant stops make combat, and even general encounters, even slower.

--Easier and easier to create broken combos, and the challenges thereof: Don't get me wrong, options are great, but the glut of abusable options make for a DM that has to be ever vigilant about what material is allowed in, and then deal with the possibility that a player will complain that I am "house ruling" by not letting every WotC book out there into play, so I spend quite a bit of time evaluating material to see if its gonna cause a problem, since WotC apparently didn't do a good job monitoring this stuff themselves.

--DM creativity squelched: When 3e came out, I welcomed the more concrete and specific rule set. I have come to realize, that the rules that clarify can often bind and beat my creative juices with the hearty player cry of "you can't do that!" or "you cheated!" or a number of other things. . . often coming from players who like a predictable pattern/ rule set that they can learn to exploit. Again, the system seems to discourage creativity and encourage constant rules referencing by the sheer mass and specificity of its rules.

I have a few more, but i'm short on time now. Some may not find these to be problems. more power to you, but I've been told i am a good DM. Heck, i have players I used to play with Begging me to come back and run games for them, but i just can't because of the almost bureucratic density of the 3.5 ruleset and all the loopholes and stopgaps that the system seems filled with. Its really no wonder that 3.5 is the game few want to DM anymore. In truth, I still like 3.5, i just think I would enjoy D&D more if the rules were streamlined and made easier to use without constant game slowing/ stopping.

Bingo, this sums up my problems with running 3.5 pretty well. The only things I'd add:

--D&D 3.x spends too much time documenting and codifying every little detail in the game- I found it impaired my DMing style and freedoms.

--Statting up NPCs that make sense like the PCs and are good challenges for them is a nightmare, especially at levels 8+.

--This one bears repeating- the undermining/discouragement of DM creativity. Everything has a class, feat, skill, magic item, or combo that has to be taken in order for it to be done. So now to build the interesting NPC or monster you had in mind, you have to sift through stacks of rules minutiae looking for the right combo.

Things got so bad for me that I refused to DM D&D 3.x anymore, or for that fact almost anything D20 (True 20 excepted). I don't even enjoy playing D&D 3.x or D20 as a player- its just too jarring to my enjoyment. I have better things to do with my time than spend endless hours statting up and doing prepwork with the rules of the game- I'd much rather spend my prep time coming up with interesting plots, events, locales, and characters, making terrain for my game, or painting minis. I LOVE DMing other systems - Savage Worlds, WHFRP2, Warhammer 40k: Dark Heresy, Call of Cthuhu BRP, and True 20 are a joy and breeze to run, and address ALL the issues and problems I have with D&D 3.x. I know some people love D&D 3.x and the rules convulutions that come with it, but for me and my group, D&D 3.x and D20 are deeply flawed and nearly unplayable, as well as being just plain old less fun. I'm cautiously optomistic about 4E, but we'll see.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

I enjoyed 3.X a great deal, however, I welcome the changes to the system outlined in 4E. It becomes annoying to have to spend so much time creating encounters, especially if you wish to truly challenge your party without out right killing them, making it too easy, or giving them too many magical items from the encounter.

As others have mentioned, the problems with NPC creation and the aftermath in encounter design become a true annoyance once you go past the 13th level mark. A few have dismissed the example given earlier in this thread of creating a group capable of challenging a 17th level, mechanically sound PC party, but it's a very real issue.

Consider the abilities, overall, a 17th level party has at its disposal, from attacks to special abilities to spells to skills, all of which will be leveled against the opponents you have chosen for them this day. If you estimate poorly, the group will either fall in the first two rounds, perhaps the first, or the PCs will likewise be running for the hills within the same span of time.

So, you have to spend time carefully, patiently, and accurately detailing groups to challenge your PC party, and you have to do it multiple times across the span of many weeks, making sure you have keyed the special abilities, spells available, DCs thereof, hitpoints, AC, and magical item allowance is in line with your parties defenses, spell power, attacks, damage, and magical item level. It can get tiring even for those who love NPC creation.

 

[Cyronax]

While I dont' like playing in such games either, do you think 4e is going to prevent those DMs from allowing anything there players want?

I hope that there will be more explicit attempts by game developers to give the DM more power in writing to Rule 0 or disallow certain things.

I know this sounds stupid to some people, but I had a group in which I bent over backwards for to challenge and create excitement during the game .... and no matter what I did, it was never enough.

They would always want to upgrade/change characters everytime a new sourcebook came out. Complete Mage and my disallowal of reserve feats and the Abjurant Champion PrC ended my last group. They couldn't understand that I had finely balanced my game to early 3.5 rules (including the first four Complete books + the Dragon Compendium).

Book of Nine Swords (which is great if used from 1st level) also helped derail my group, because everyone wanted to use a tacked on system.

Anyway, I would be thoroughly surprised if others haven't had this experience, but I never see posts about this sort of thing around here.


BTW, my new group is totally great, and all we use is the 3.5 core rules (for players not monsters) and limited Dragon Compendium and Spell Compendium material (usually for enterprising arcanist researchers trying to branch out).

My last group = WoW players (and they were ... I wasn't)

My current group = true roleplayers that enjoy a mix of story, random fantastic reality, and just old fashioned gamist tradition.

Anyway .. rant over. Great thread.

C.I.D.

 

[Gothmog]

One other thing I just thought of that is a BIG problem for me with D&D 3.x is the rules are the focal point of the game, rather then the plot or characters in the game. What I mean by this is that the rules are not transparent at all- the rules are a huge part of the game. The ruleset encourages a lot of metagame thinking- in order to build an effective character, you have to carefully select skill ranks, feats, and gear that complement your build- not to mention being able to qualify for certain prestige classes. In essence, rules mastery is a game within a game. Because of this, players and DMs (at least from my experience) play the game from a "rules first" standpoint, and give secondary consideration to role-playing, plot development, and immersion as secondary considerations. I've known lots of people who were great roleplayers in other systems and earlier incarnations of D&D get into a 3.x game, and they lose their roleplaying skills and richness of play because they focus on rules so much (I was like that too in the early days of 3E). In addition, if one player in the group is into optomization, it necessitates that everyone else must also be- otherwise an encounter that would challenge the optomized character would slaughter off the less-optomized PCs, or lead to a lot of player frustration. So for people that love resource management first, and role-playing and immersion in the game world second, D&D 3.x and D20 is probably an ideal system. For me, it produces a really jarring feel during play by taking the focus off the things my group and I enjoy most about gaming.

 

[Rechan]

Basically, running mid to high level games requires an enormous amount of prep work, high-level combat involves a lot of corner-case rules interactions and tends to create breeze-through or dead situations.

Mid to high levels?

I got burnt out trying to stat up a group of half a dozen 3 level cultists all multi-classed from their before-classes into stuff like barbarian, psychic warrior, warlock, etc.

I've never DMed or played above 9th level, and I got frustrated.

Here's something for me:

-The players I have a habit of running around with do one of two things. Make sub-par characters because they're Roleplayers (or are casual gamers), or make min/maxing solutions. I found it very difficult to have a fun, challenging fight when Pushover McGee couldn't touch anything. This was especially bad when both min-maxers and Rpers get in the same group, so you have severe disparity.

-Slow ass combat. In relatively low level games, mind you.

-Monotonous monsters. Do you have any idea how many monsters have Improved Grab?

-The 15 minute work day. I swear.

-No Chase Rules.

-The way monsters just folded up. They would be in a fight maybe 2-3 rounds tops. To put it bluntly, they didn't last long enough to do anything "cool". And while they didn't last long enough in the fight, the fight still took forever, might I add.

I'm certain more will come to me later.

 

[Hussar]

-Monotonous monsters. Do you have any idea how many monsters have Improved Grab?

True 'dat. I know it makes sense for a lot of creatures to have this, but, combined with the massive grapple bonuses that large creatures got, meant that it became an automatic deal pretty quickly.

Then, of course, it became SOP to cast Freedom of Movement all the time, so, now the monsters had nothing to fall back on.

But, honestly, the problem for me has always been prep time. It just takes too bloody long to stat up a 3e adventure.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Wait a minute? I HAVE to use one prestige class per NPC and have an animal companion? I'll go with an eldritch giant fighter for 500gp and a fighter/marshal/hexblade/blackguard and an anti-CODzilla, a support wizard, a warsinger, and some mid-level mooks who will actually get to be pretty darn dangerous between the marshal, wizard, cleric, and warsinger.

Of course that's going to be complex. But given the pouncing barbarian and the most broken skill monkey, you're not playing core rules only here. I'd wager that, given a year and a half worth of supplements, and players with six months of experimentation to find out what works and what doesn't in the new rules, creating an evil NPC party to challenge your level 27 fourth edition party will be at least as complex and time consuming.

Hype always sounds good before anyone has an opportunity to see what it delivers.

Okay, try this. Create an evil NPC party that can stand up to a Codzilla, Batman wizard, a poucing Barbarian, and <insert most broken skill monkey here>. Use at least one prestige per NPC and have at least one of them be a CR 3+ Monster with class levels. If possible, give one of them an animal companion to ride and use the combat riding feats. Have another one fly around a lot. Everyone is level 17th. Tell me how long you take to plan it all out.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Each NPC I create takes anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour if incredibly funky to create. I liberally "borrow" stat blocks from published adventures even if I don't plan on running them.

Even still, when I built a 3 level dungeon crawl for my last campaign that ran for 2 Months IRL at once a week for 6 hours each session, it took me 14 hours to build, stat (even just yoinking crap straight from books), make sure things flowed logically, etc.

Was it worth it, yes. But that's a lot of work to ask to run a smooth game and that's not even thinking of the plot.