What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Micah Sweet]

As was pointed out by another poster, the mindset of people hoping to minimize the continued expression of harmful content in RPGs is the polar opposite of people who want to supress knowledge of RW atrocities. Spelling it out: the former hope to reduce future harm (empathic). The latter want to erase the fact of past harm, some with an eye towards being able to replicate it in the future (sociopathic).

The Venn Diagram of these two groups’ goals have little, if any, overlap.

Yet the result is eerily similar: unpleasant parts of the human experience are removed from the public consciousness.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

…which is why I noted that it would be unlikely for Lovecraft, who was from a wealthy Anglo-Dutch family and could likely trace every root of his family tree all the way back to Europe with utmost accuracy, to fear having an unknown African ancestor.

This contradicts your point and supports mine.

As racist as he was, IF a DNA test revealed he had any African ancestry, he would have been mortally appalled. His certainty in his inherent superior lineage would be undermined.

Because believe you me, the “family histories” of American white supremacists who got surprised by THEIR results had been thoroughly pruned of any references to non-caucasian ancestry. IOW, someone or someones back in the day LIED about the realities of their family’s true origins.

Jewish ancestry would certainly be possible, but since the person in question would have converted to Christianity and left Jewish culture behind, it would probably not have caused him undue distress.

Possible, but highly unlikely. I know that white supremacists are not monolithic in their hate. Some hate only select groups.

But antisemitism is almost foundational and ubiquitous to white supremacy. It’s the “gateway” hate.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

It's not about not having a topic, but simply not using a charged topic flippantly. No one has taken sexual assault out of the possible plots, but it doesn't see as much use because there needs to be care when it it is used. That's the argument being used for slavery: that it is being used flippantly as set dress, which trivializes the institution itself and the pain it causes.

Who gets to decide which pile of things can be treated flippantly and what constitutes flippancy? You seem to have no problem with war and violence (as it has been treated in DnD) however there is a greater likelihood that someone at your table has experienced war or violence than has experienced slavery.

You have your own excuses why violence is "more OK" but those excuses are yours, not factual truths.

The statements "Thousands were slaughtered at the hands of the rampaging orcs" and "Thousands were enslaved in the clutches of the dastardly yuan-tu" arent radically different.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yet the result is eerily similar: unpleasant parts of the human experience are removed from the public consciousness.

Not similar at all.

Removal or modification of the treatment of slavery from a game does not remove anything from public consciousness AT ALL. It removes it from a game. A passtime. A luxury. Nothing more.

The knowledge is still available in countless history books and classes (so far).

The only way your assertion would make a lick of sense is if RPGs were one of the primary ways history was taught. AFAIK, that is (thankfully) not the case. (Though it must be said that certain school books I’ve seen the past few years- fortunately, not approved for use in schools- have been cartoonishly inaccurate.)

 

[JiffyPopTart]

This contradicts your point and supports mine.

As racist as he was, IF a DNA test revealed he had any African ancestry, he would have been mortally appalled. His certainty in his inherent superior lineage would be undermined.

Because believe you me, the “family histories” of American white supremacists who got surprised by THEIR results had been thoroughly pruned of any references to non-caucasian ancestry. IOW, someone or someones back in the day LIED about the realities of their family’s true origins.

Imagine how he would react at whatever % of neanderthal DNA might turn up in a 23andMe?

 

[MGibster]

Where the heck are we anymore with the crayon analogy? The whole thing feels like it is trying and failing to be too clever by half.

All I know is the magenta crayons taste the best.

 

[Faolyn]

As for it's "not considered controversial", buddy, it's on the way there. Just look at discussions in the same places you strongest objections to slavery being even portrayed in TTRPGs. I'm not saying "Hide your kids, the Federal Government WotC is coming to take your longsword D&D manual" or something. I'm saying the same sort of concerns that have rendered slavery not even acceptable as a background element are actually beginning to manifest re: murderhobo-ery and the generally violent and acquisitive aspects of certain TTRPGs.

Violence in RPGs (especially games where there are attempts to balance combat) is between people on mostly equal footing, while slavery is not; nor is torture or rape. Those are the strong and powerful against the weak and helpless.

But anyway. Maybe RPGs will turn towards a less violent route, where players will first be rewarded for finding non-violent solutions, and then the games themselves will be written to not have violent solutions be feasible, or where violence is only considered acceptable towards mindless or irredeemable foes. Who knows? I got a lot of tiny indie games from itchi.o bundles that were this exactly, and I know of (and own) a couple of RPGs that de-emphasize combat in favor of interpersonal relations (for instance, Thirsty Sword Lesbians) or investigation/puzzle-solving (such as anything Cthulhu based), so maybe the mainstream games will follow that path eventually. Maybe, in some point in the future, D&D will award XP based on how many foes you leave alive instead of how many you kill.

We're not entirely there yet. We may be there one day, but not today. But we're starting with the slavery, because at the moment, violence is still useful in games while slavery isn't.

To be honest, I don't think anyone who wasn't already a sicko is going to think "Yay lets be slavers!". I very much think, based on long experiences of RPGs, that people who are messed-up like that, are messed-up regardless of the actual setting elements, unless the setting elements directly encourage them to be messed-up in like "It's okay to enslave goblins because they're not people!" kind of way - even then it only gets a few more people who were already on the edge of that.

If something is outright allowed in a game, then it won't be sick to engage in it. After all, as you just said above, we're often murderhoboes, and that's "sicko" behavior. It's messed up to want to go forth and kill people and take their stuff, even if there's a pretense of "they're evil." It's why so many people were adverse to removing alignments in D&D--because they wanted evil creatures to fight, not creatures who may or may not be evil. It's doubly messed up to inflict burning wounds with fire and acid and lightning or to eat away at their souls with necrotic damage. It's horrific to take over a creature's mind and body with enchantment magic. And yet, neither you nor I would call the average gamer to be a sicko, because that sort of behavior is allowed by the game and most of us handwave the damage so it doesn't cause undue physical or mental pain.

I don't think most people are going to say "yay, let's be slavers." I think people are going to end up with captives and, while figuring out what to do with them, realize that there's a slave market next town over and decide to get some coin for their trouble. Or they're going to need someone to carry their stuff and a slave turns out to be cheaper than a henchman. And if you have a setting where slavery is an accepted cultural norm, then yes, there will be people who decide to play slavers because it's a realistic option or them.

I also feel like Star Wars really has a reckoning coming on droids lol though.

You ever read the webcomic Darths & Droids? There's definitely droid tension there.

 

[Faolyn]

Please explain I'm missing the logic.

Not having a topic available to use is a completely different concept than there not being a limit to the numbers of topics available. (Except I guess a theoretical limit to ones creativity).

Let's logic this out.

I draw a venn-diagram circle that is labeled "Every story imaginable".

Now I have to properly place a second circle in my venn-diagram labelled "Every story imaginable that doesn't contain controversial topic X"

That second circle will be entirely contained inside the first circle.

Therefore (logically) you have eliminated so.e stories that can be told.

That's literally all I have been saying.

You literally said there's an infinite number of colors. If you're comparing colors to stories, then there's an infinite number of stories. Any number subtracted from infinity still leaves infinity.

But more prosaically, if you can't rely on a tired trope like slavery, then you learn to be creative by bringing in other things. I have players who have a fair number of things they don't want to see in games, based on everything from phobias to trauma. I mostly run horror and sadly, some of those things make for great horror plots. For instance, possession is a no-go at our table due to religion-based trauma. But possession is also an overdone trope, so my horror games become less tired and more original by having to find plots that don't rely on it.

If you can't use red anymore, then maybe that's a good thing, because red is used far too much.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You literally said there's an infinite number of colors. If you're comparing colors to stories, then there's an infinite number of stories. Any number subtracted from infinity still leaves infinity.

But more prosaically, if you can't rely on a tired trope like slavery, then you learn to be creative by bringing in other things. I have players who have a fair number of things they don't want to see in games, based on everything from phobias to trauma. I mostly run horror and sadly, some of those things make for great horror plots. For instance, possession is a no-go at our table due to religion-based trauma. But possession is also an overdone trope, so my horror games become less tired and more original by having to find plots that don't rely on it.

If you can't use red anymore, then maybe that's a good thing, because red is used far too much.

I feel like the, "this story element is tired and overused in my opinion, so no one should use and it should no longer be publishable" argument is a little selfish. Shouldn't people be allowed to make their own decisions about what to use and what to purchase?

 

[Minion X]

This contradicts your point and supports mine.
As racist as he was, IF a DNA test revealed he had any African ancestry, he would have been mortally appalled. His certainty in his inherent superior lineage would be undermined.
Because believe you me, the “family histories” of American white supremacists who got surprised by THEIR results had been thoroughly pruned of any references to non-caucasian ancestry. IOW, someone or someones back in the day LIED about the realities of their family’s true origins.
Possible, but highly unlikely. I know that white supremacists are not monolithic in their hate. Some hate only select groups.
But antisemitism is almost foundational and ubiquitous to white supremacy. It’s the “gateway” hate.

The point wasn't what Lovecraft would have felt had he lived long enough to this hypothetical DNA test, but what inspired The Shadow over Innsmouth. Some think it reflects on miscenegation, while others (including me) believe it reflects on Lovecraft's fear of carrying some form of congential insanity, since both his mother and father were institutionalized. Since Lovecraft would be unlikely to fear having a secret African ancestor, the former theory does not mesh with the theme of a hidden heritage lurking unseen until manifesting later in life.
As for any type of racialism, such things are arbitrary constructs and are easily adapted to any kind of circumstances. It's like "Four legs good, two legs better".