What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[cranberry]

As was pointed out by another poster, the mindset of people hoping to minimize the continued expression of harmful content in RPGs is the polar opposite of people who want to suppress knowledge of RW atrocities. Spelling it out: the former hope to reduce future harm (empathic). The latter want to erase the fact of past harm, some with an eye towards being able to replicate it in the future (sociopathic).

The Venn Diagram of these two groups’ goals have little, if any, overlap.

I sincerely hope you're right.

 

[Faolyn]

double post

 

[Bedrockgames]

With Lovecraft it's worth noting that his work has essentially been reclaimed, though. Many PoC/minority authors love the concepts in Lovecraft despite the demented racism (and I've read suggestions that it's actually less offensive than some of the more subtle and insidious racism of later authors, because it's so incoherent and extreme), and there's been a lot of cool stuff done with it in the last 20 years. So I think suggestions of removing him from lists are a bit misguided at this point.

And to your other point, his racism was a very specific, patrician New Englander type of racism, where being Irish, Italian, Scottish, pretty much anything but from England and a mayflower descendent was a potential (he had a very aristocratic kind of racism). So when I was first reading him as a kid, the racism was pretty obvious to be, and directed at me too (I remember an Italian diatribe being one of the first things that popped out). I think outside New England the line between pure blood Yankees and newer immigrant groups isn’t as well known a thing (thankfully in New England now it seems to be fading). But growing up here, it was still relevant to a degree, and a lot of his racism appears to form on that line.

I would say while that stuff was there he has been reclaimed got a reason (his work is more than those ideas and he was s brilliant horror writer, plus there is done thing more sad and pathetic about his racism). I also think his views did change over time so there is some nuance to the man (his views on race fo seem to have softened a bit and he died very young, in one of the most excruciating deaths you can imagine). I’ve always appreciated his work and his genius, but understood he was a very troubled guy with racist ideas (though ideas I would say that were more common in his time in New England, though he seemed to obsess more about them)

 

[Faolyn]

Why would you think it's fair or reasonable to tell me I don't need to use a topic because you find it a tired trope? Double so when you have stated you use the topic yourself. I'm having a hard time not viewing this as a hypocritical double standard.

Why would you think it's fair or reasonable to tell everyone else that they do need a trope because otherwise their worlds won't be as realistic or as rich?

Please cite one single time in this thread I have said "you need to have a particular element or the product suffers".

"I said that when you remove concepts (aka specific colors of crayons) from the list of available topics that can be included in a game (the box of crayons) then the area your game can cover (your pictures color palette) is not as wide as if you still had access to all concepts (a larger color palette)."

"Previously in this thread I have stated that you shouldn't remove the red crayon from the box, because it limits possibilities in storytelling."

You know what, I'm going to go with one last analogy. If we can't be in the same page after this, then it's just not going to happen.

A DnD game is a pizza.

All the different narrative choices are toppings.

This thread is about how we feel about restricting the toppings allowed to be put on pizza at the most popular pizzaria.

I am saying we should all have all the toppings available so we can build the exact pizza we like.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying to mean that every pizza should have every topping.

You are also saying I shouldn't like pepperoni on my pizza because it's overused.

And I'll go through with one last analogy as well.

If a pizza parlor chooses to not sell a specific topping, then that's perfectly OK. Ledo's pizza has salami and meatballs as potential toppings, but Pizza Hut doesn't--but Pizza Hut does have sun-dried tomatoes, which Ledo's doesn't. And California Pizza Kitchen has broccoli and avocado, which neither Ledo's or Pizza Hut sell.

Why? Because they are different restaurants selling different types of pizza.

Just like different companies produce different games and different genres of game with different target audiences, and will thus include different topics. And some companies are choosing not to sell slavery as an option for their pizza.

 

[Bedrockgames]

One can always find a second, third, and fourth interpretation, if you really want to.

Put in the context of other elements of the man's life and other writings (like, say, the name of his cat, and the racial diatribes in his journalism and personal letters) the pattern becomes rather harder to reasonably deny. Searching for other ways to interpret the work starts like looking like apologia, which can become problematic.

This thread isn't primarily about the one author, so how about we not argue too much over him, hey what?

To be clear I wasn’t defending his worldview or saying racism wasn’t in his stories (there are ample examples of racism that aren’t subtextual). I just don’t think this is the subtext here (and my reading isn’t that unusual, I’ve read plenty of essays since making similar arguments to mine). Not saying I am right. But there should be room for people to have differing interpretations of literature. And here I just found it more likely the story was really him grappling with realizations about illness that was probably starting to become apparent to him. Also we have discussed it before the story doesn’t end with horror but the beauty of what he turns into.

 

[Cadence]

Edit: Ninja's by @Faolyn 's last point.

You know what, I'm going to go with one last analogy. If we can't be in the same page after this, then it's just not going to happen.

A DnD game is a pizza.

All the different narrative choices are toppings.

This thread is about how we feel about restricting the toppings allowed to be put on pizza at the most popular pizzaria.

I am saying we should all have all the toppings available so we can build the exact pizza we like.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying to mean that every pizza should have every topping.

You are also saying I shouldn't like pepperoni on my pizza because it's overused.

It feels like the popular pizzeria is fine not to carry sardines or tuna if they want - you can buy them somewhere else and put them on at home, right?

 

[Bedrockgames]

It feels like the popular pizzeria is fine not to carry sardines or tuna if they want - you can buy them somewhere else and put them on at home, right?

sardines need to be baked into the pizza itself. Not really commenting on how this applies to D&D but as a former delivery guy and occasional sardine pizza eater, this must be pointed out). Throwing wet sardines from a can onto your freshly delivered pizza is a recipe for sadness

 

[Cadence]

sardines need to be baked into the pizza itself. Not really commenting on how this applies to D&D but as a former delivery guy and occasional sardine pizza eater, this must be pointed out). Throwing wet sardines from a can onto your freshly delivered pizza is a recipe for sadness

Fair enough. I guess some things need to be bought at another pizzeria or made from scratch at home.

The place I shift managed didn't have them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Fair enough. I guess some things need to be bought at another pizzeria or made from scratch at home.

The place I shift managed didn't have them.

I think they are rarely ordered these days. They don’t seem as common now

 

[Cadence]

I think they are rarely ordered these days. They don’t seem as common now

A friend got them on half a pizza once. Maybe they just didn't drain them, but I was left with the impression you couldn't really effectively get them on just half.

Tuna was really popular when I was in Germany, but that was 20+ years ago.