What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Minion X]

Sardines go great with pineapple on pizza. Another great thing we would lose if we eliminate controversial toppings.

 

[Bedrockgames]

A friend got them on half a pizza once. Maybe they just didn't drain them, but I was left with the impression you couldn't really effectively get them on just half.

Tuna was really popular when I was in Germany, but that was 20+ years ago.

Sardines on a pizza have usually pretty dry when I've had them (the first time I had them all I tasted was the salt because I ordered an everything and didn't know everything included sardines). Might depend on how they do it though, and there could be regional variation or differences by type of place. Here we also have a distinction between italian pizza places (which make them more like New York style pizza) and Greek places (which are thicker, buttery crust, different cheese blend, a bit like a pizza hut pizza)----they aren't labeled Italian and Greek that is just how they are described when people say what kind of pizza they want.

I've never had tuna on a pizza but when I used to do delivery, the older people used to get cod pizzas and all I could smell in the car was the hot cheese and ammonia. Really turned me off to that topping.

 

[Hussar]

The point wasn't what Lovecraft would have felt had he lived long enough to this hypothetical DNA test, but what inspired The Shadow over Innsmouth. Some think it reflects on miscenegation, while others (including me) believe it reflects on Lovecraft's fear of carrying some form of congential insanity, since both his mother and father were institutionalized. Since Lovecraft would be unlikely to fear having a secret African ancestor, the former theory does not mesh with the theme of a hidden heritage lurking unseen until manifesting later in life.
As for any type of racialism, such things are arbitrary constructs and are easily adapted to any kind of circumstances. It's like "Four legs good, two legs better".

You do realize that focusing on the single work is kinda missing the point right?

The point was, we should not include racist bigots in a list of INSPIRATIONAL reading in the 5e PHB.

Can we at least try to speak to the issue without endlessly diving down non sequitur rabbit holes that completely miss the point?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Who gets to decide which pile of things can be treated flippantly and what constitutes flippancy? You seem to have no problem with war and violence (as it has been treated in DnD) however there is a greater likelihood that someone at your table has experienced war or violence than has experienced slavery.

Yes, and there's a point to be made about how certain violence is portrayed, and I think there's absolutely space for that discussion! We should have those conversations because I think they are important to creating a more interesting and healthy roleplaying environment. But I also don't really believe that you care about that beyond trying to create big tu quoque, so I really feel a need to continue down that route.

You have your own excuses why violence is "more OK" but those excuses are yours, not factual truths.

And you have really bad analogies as to why slavery belongs. I'm pretty okay with my reasoned justifications for why people feel violence is different than slavery, and I don't have to force weird crayon analogies onto my reasoning to do it.

The statements "Thousands were slaughtered at the hands of the rampaging orcs" and "Thousands were enslaved in the clutches of the dastardly yuan-tu" arent radically different.

I think when you actually start showing enslaved peoples, it does. But you don't seem interested in engaging the topic, but rather obscuring it through weird metaphors. I'll leave you to that.

 

[Hussar]

You know what, I'm going to go with one last analogy. If we can't be in the same page after this, then it's just not going to happen.

A DnD game is a pizza.

All the different narrative choices are toppings.

This thread is about how we feel about restricting the toppings allowed to be put on pizza at the most popular pizzaria.

I am saying we should all have all the toppings available so we can build the exact pizza we like.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying to mean that every pizza should have every topping.

You are also saying I shouldn't like pepperoni on my pizza because it's overused.

The problem is, you’re ignoring the fact that pepperoni has been used to the virtual exclusion of other toppings, resulting in numbers of pizza lovers who would love to have pizza with you feel unwelcome because every time they come to the restaurant, there is a very good chance (not 100% but still high) that the pizza will have pepperoni and not other toppings.

In other words, you insist on sticking to theoreticals and ignore actual facts and history.

 

[Irlo]

First they came for the RPG books
Then they came for the history books
Next they came for the history teachers
Then they came for the history wrong-thinkers
Then they made lists of their enemies and went after them
Finally, they came for me because there was no one left to persecute.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions...

Be careful what you wish for.

Try it this way:

First, they came for history. In the US, at least, they wrote taught an incomplete, sanitized, self-serving mess of half-truths and myths that marginalized minority voices and lives, that glorified colonialism, and that obsured atrocities.

Then, they built a culture and entertainment industry (including RPGs) heavily influenced by the faux-history in which the majority culture was indoctrinated, continuing to marginalize minority voices and lives.

Then they came after people who were looking at that history and culture and entertainment industry and RPGs more critically and deliberately, but, fortunately, they weren't sucessful in shutting down those all of those efforts (although a lot of people suffered and still do suffer for it).

 

[MGibster]

What kind of crayons can we put on our pizza?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Why would you think it's fair or reasonable to tell everyone else that they do need a trope because otherwise their worlds won't be as realistic or as rich?


"I said that when you remove concepts (aka specific colors of crayons) from the list of available topics that can be included in a game (the box of crayons) then the area your game can cover (your pictures color palette) is not as wide as if you still had access to all concepts (a larger color palette)."

"Previously in this thread I have stated that you shouldn't remove the red crayon from the box, because it limits possibilities in storytelling."


And I'll go through with one last analogy as well.

If a pizza parlor chooses to not sell a specific topping, then that's perfectly OK. Ledo's pizza has salami and meatballs as potential toppings, but Pizza Hut doesn't--but Pizza Hut does have sun-dried tomatoes, which Ledo's doesn't. And California Pizza Kitchen has broccoli and avocado, which neither Ledo's or Pizza Hut sell.

Why? Because they are different restaurants selling different types of pizza.

Just like different companies produce different games and different genres of game with different target audiences, and will thus include different topics. And some companies are choosing not to sell slavery as an option for their pizza.

So it's specifically WotC then? You're fine with other companies producing red-crayon products? The tone I've been getting seemed to imply you'd rather no company use it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem is, you’re ignoring the fact that pepperoni has been used to the virtual exclusion of other toppings, resulting in numbers of pizza lovers who would love to have pizza with you feel unwelcome because every time they come to the restaurant, there is a very good chance (not 100% but still high) that the pizza will have pepperoni and not other toppings.

In other words, you insist on sticking to theoreticals and ignore actual facts and history.

Does that mean that no one should sell pepperoni then? That from now on if you want pepperoni you need to make it yourself?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Does that mean that no one should sell pepperoni then? That from now on if you want pepperoni you need to make it yourself?

Just talk about putting slavery in a product, for Lathander's sake. All this beating around the bush is so frustrating because those who are defending the idea have problems seemingly even talking about it directly. The metaphors aren't real, they aren't even good comparisons.

Let's just talk directly about the topic. Like, let me ask a direct question: which slavery is indispensable to the Forgotten Realms as a setting? Like, which instances are integral to the setting so that it functions.