What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[MGibster]

eah and unfortunately it's coming at art from both sides of the political spectrum. On one side, it's being used as a tool to try and relitigate the LGBTQ+ debate

Looks like I'm going to have to ask my local game store to start hosting Drag Queens DM D&D Adventures game nights.

 

[Bagpuss]

Because they aren't just slightly more powerful. They are far more powerful than even the most powerful mortals. Kelemvor could snap his fingers and you die.

Wow, 7th level spell Finger of Death will kill most people, a few Magic Missiles will kill most people. Killing people is simple.

 

[Bagpuss]

Really? Are we talking players that are a couple IRL?

No, not usually. Just people flirting in character.

 

[ilgatto]

(...) this - Everyone Is Beautiful and No One Is Horny - Blood Knife (...)

That is a very interesting article. Reading it now.

Same here.

I don't tend to spend much time thinking on the subject but that is a rather interesting take on some things I have noticed regarding how some folks react to "sexual content" in recent years.

Food for thought.

 

[Bagpuss]

Frankly, if I want sexy art, I look for books or sources dedicated to it. I don’t need it in my RPG manuals- unless the RPG is dedicated to such things, I guess.

Well I'm happy for you but I'm British so use to titillation in virtually all my media even stuff aimed at kids. I guess you need to grow up with Pantomime and Carry on Movies.

 

[JAMUMU]

Well I'm happy for you but I'm British so use to titillation in virtually all my media even stuff aimed at kids. I guess you need to grow up with Pantomime and Carry on Movies.

No Sex Please, We're British!

 

[Faolyn]

So, everything in 40K. Got it.

Beats me. I've never read those books.

 

[Bagpuss]

And it's quite a bit different when it's at your table then when the RPG reduces women to that roll.

True but I can't recall any* many RPGs that reduce women to that roll... and certainly not your average D&D module.

*Tell a lie, I can think of three all of which are historical based on periods and genres where women had very restricted rolls, and all the PCs are male characters.

• En Garde where women are to be wooed for status.
• Duty and Honour which is basically Sharpe's Rifles the RPG, so fitting the genre women are either set dress or one of three not very flattering tropes, Helpless Lady, Deceptive Hussy, and Spirited Lover (wife).
• Pendragon to a lesser extent as female knights are becoming a thing now, but generally they were just their to win the favour of and run the estate while you were off adventuring and carry on the family line

Daft thing is they are all very good RPGs and reflections of the fiction/historical period they were born from.

 

[Bagpuss]

No Sex Please, We're British!

Exactly no sex, but lots of hints and innuendo about it.

 

[Faolyn]

Yeah we get it. It's never the same thing when it doesn't suit the conversation.

Please tell me how RPGs and music videos are similar enough that the actions of a person in one can be compared to the art in another.

 

[MGibster]

Please tell me how RPGs and music videos are similar enough that the actions of a person in one can be compared to the art in another.

I have it on good authority that Michael Jackson consulted Gary Gygax on the stats for the werecat (wolf?) thing from the music video Thriller.

 

[Thourne]

Please tell me how RPGs and music videos are similar enough that the actions of a person in one can be compared to the art in another.

Evoking an emotional response, challenging a held notion, confronting you with something uncomfortable, etc,
Art doing as art does in general.

Better response would be to point out the differences and why it is a poor comparison for this instance. Especially since the other poster feels they are not different enough to justify that point.

 

[Thourne]

I have it on good authority that Michael Jackson consulted Gary Gygax on the stats for the werecat (wolf?) thing from the music video Thriller.

Werewolf if you can believe it. yah....

 

[Justice and Rule]

This is a fallacy, in that it presents false reasoning.

No significant proportion of the audience is buying non-erotic-focused TTRPGs, videogames, etc. for "sexy art" as were. However, that does not in any way mean that such creations should not have "sexy art" in them. There's an underlying prudish sentiment that's being taken as read, taken as common, when it actually isn't. This idea that media/artwork is either "sexual" or "not sexual". That there's some thick and obvious dividing line, and the related idea - a very American Puritan one, that it's dangerous or wildly inappropriate to expose people to anything "sexy" when that wasn't the obvious focus of the product.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting you're personally a prude, but the idea that unless an RPG is "dedicated" to the erotic, nothing "sexy" should be depicted in it is absolutely a prudish and puritanical idea, and rather culturally specific to the US (albeit disturbingly common there).

The reality is, unless the book is specifically aimed at children, it's probably fine for the artists/creators who make it, to include some artwork which some people will regard as "sexy" or "risque" or whatever. It's not required that it be included, but equally, the idea that it shouldn't be included simply because the RPG isn't "dedicated" to that is a faulty one.

This is important to me because it's a fundamental artistic freedom, and honestly a lot of good art involves an element of sexuality or sensuality. And when people dislike that, or just want to draw lines around what is "okay", it also (surprise surprise) tends to be LGBTQ+ sexuality/sensuality that gets picked up and kicked out first.

Specifically I'll be sad if all/most TTRPGs end up like this - Everyone Is Beautiful and No One Is Horny - Blood Knife

I know I'm extending a lot from a short post, and I don't expect you intend prudishness or the like, but I do think you're illustrating a poorly-examined/unreflected bias that's unfortunately increasingly common today.

The article you post really isn't about "sexy art", though. The examples they mention can be sexy, but largely speaking it's about the sexlessness of things, that there just isn't sex in mainstream movies anymore when it used to be incredibly prevalent. I think the example of Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese as great examples being used: they aren't in skimpy outfits, but the act of having sex helps humanize them and help make them feel like relatable adults. That's why Marvel films feel so weird: no one seemingly entertains romance, no one feels sexy despite being beautiful. But to do these things, you don't need what people are referring to as "erotic art" necessarily, and erotic art won't necessarily do it right, either.

And I think that also something that is a bit different between RPGs and movies: you're much more deeply involved in an RPG than you are as a spectator in a movie. Watching someone have in a movie make love is very different than trying to have romantic scenarios at the tabletop. The interaction makes things different for the player, and definitely for women who actually want to play the game.

Evoking an emotional response, challenging a held notion, confronting you with something uncomfortable, etc,
Art doing as art does in general.

That is so generalized as to be almost useless. Just about anything, including things that we wouldn't consider art, can do that.

Better response would be to point out the differences and why it is a poor comparison for this instance. Especially since the other poster feels they are not different enough to justify that point.

I mean, is it not obvious that music videos are far more controlled and thus really not comparable to interactive fiction that involves people i.e. watching is very different from doing? I feel like this doesn't really need to be spelled out to be immediately understood.

 

[Thourne]

That is so generalized as to be almost useless. Just about anything, including things that we wouldn't consider art, can do that.



I mean, is it not obvious that music videos are far more controlled and thus really not comparable to interactive fiction that involves people i.e. watching is very different from doing? I feel like this doesn't really need to be spelled out to be immediately understood.

Kinda my point.
The poster they are responding to made the comparison. Why not deconstruct it to explain why it was wrong? Assuming they understood the other viewpoint, when they made the comparison to begin with, would seem to indicate they do not.

 

[Bagpuss]

The reality is, unless the book is specifically aimed at children, it's probably fine for the artists/creators who make it, to include some artwork which some people will regard as "sexy" or "risque" or whatever. It's not required that it be included, but equally, the idea that it shouldn't be included simply because the RPG isn't "dedicated" to that is a faulty one.

This is important to me because it's a fundamental artistic freedom, and honestly a lot of good art involves an element of sexuality or sensuality. And when people dislike that, or just want to draw lines around what is "okay", it also (surprise surprise) tends to be LGBTQ+ sexuality/sensuality that gets picked up and kicked out first.

Oddly perhaps, queer RPGs are one of the places people seem fine with sexual content in an RPG. Thirsty Sword Lesbians fine, Horny Bards bad. Monsterhearts, good; straight fighter hooking up with the barmaid, bad.

Perhaps because in order to be queer content, it has to allow for expressing sexuality. If you don't express sexuality then it is assumed everyone is straight, in an oddly fantasy asexual world.

 

[Thourne]

Oddly perhaps, queer RPGs are one of the places people seem fine with sexual content in an RPG. Thirsty Sword Lesbians fine, Horny Bards bad. Monsterhearts, good; straight fighter hooking up with the barmaid, bad.

Perhaps because in order to be queer content, it has to allow for expressing sexuality. If you don't express sexuality then it is assumed everyone is straight, in an oddly fantasy asexual world.

Makes sense. Two guys on an adventure is just a buddy movie if you don't mention they are into each other.

Edit: By which I mean the default reaction of most of society as a whole.

 

[Maxperson]

Wow, 7th level spell Finger of Death will kill most people, a few Magic Missiles will kill most people. Killing people is simple.

20th level max hit point fighter? snap dead and Kelemvor can be anywhere in the multiverse. Same with every other class, and it takes a greater god with one of two very specific abilities to bring you back. Nothing else will.

 

[Bagpuss]

Makes sense. Two guys on an adventure is just a buddy movie if you don't mention they are into each other.

Edit: By which I mean the default reaction of most of society as a whole.

Or even two guys sharing a bedroom or even a bed, assumed straight, Laurel and Hardy, Bert and Ernie, Morecambe and Wise.

 

[Thourne]

Or even two guys sharing a bedroom or even a bed, assumed straight, Laurel and Hardy, Bert and Ernie, Morecambe and Wise.


View attachment 279430

"This is another fine mess you've gotten us into Bagpuss!" /strikes with hat