What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Faolyn]

No, my statement had nothing to do with slavery or Lovecraft. I was responding to another posters insistence that the inclusion sexualized content would lead to widespread sexual harassment.

That sort of sexualized content often is sexual harassment. It's generally designed specifically to make women into little more than sex toys for the male adventures (and more specifically, the male players) to get off with. Unless Greenwood was so forward-thinking as to include equal numbers of male prostitutes as well?

 

[Faolyn]

Granted. What does that have to do with the question of whether or not you should be allowed to sell a product that includes it?

Who said anything about allow? WotC is choosing to not convert the setting to 5e; nobody is preventing them from doing so. And, as I've pointed out before, they're still selling all the Dark Sun products that contain slavery.

 

[Faolyn]

But what make Dark Sun so wrong?

Slavery is found in other D&D books.

Evil cities ruled over by evil rulers is found in other books.

Canabal Halflings? Well, plenty of others, like giants and goblins "eat people", not to mention dragons and such

A post apocalypse setting? Well this is a bit unique, but is it really "controversial?"

Dark Sun is unique among D&D settings in that the slavery is a cultural norm. It's not the result of a few evil people doing evil things; it's instead part of everyday society, and the only way to stop it would be to completely change the society from the ground up.

But on the other hand, Dark Sun is also unique in many other ways. Elementals instead of gods and fiends, water and iron being scarce and worth more than gold, magic that destroys the environment, the prevalence of psionics, the completely different monster lists, the unusual new races and unusual takes on existing races. But for whatever reason, many people seem to think that it's the slavery that's the most important aspect of the setting and that you can't have Dark Sun without it--despite it being probably the least interesting part of that world.

Which is what some of this controversy is about. For some reason, people really, really want slavery in Dark Sun, even though it's not at all needed to make Dark Sun unique, it doesn't seem to add anything to the setting besides, maybe, another level of in-game awfulness, and removing it wouldn't make Dark Sun less interesting.

 

[Faolyn]

Then who do you put in his place? Where should people go to find the source of the inspiration behind all the elements in the game that his work ultimately brought about?

That the books that inspired Gygax in the original Appendix N aren't going to be the same things that inspire modern gamers. There are plenty of newer versions of eldritch horror that are going to be far better at inspiring people than Lovecraft was. I mean, let's face it--even if he weren't horribly racist, he wasn't that good a writer. He created a fascinating universe, but other people have done a better job in writing in it. So instead of Lovecraft's works, include things like The Magnus Archives or Uzumaki. I'm sure people here have other suggestions as well.

 

[Faolyn]

Has that actually to you, or someone you know?

I'm sorry, sounds like a bad bunch of guys.

Yep. Especially disturbing because the first time, the guy was in his, I dunno, 40s or so and I was 15 (I did not actually follow any of his "suggestions," fortunately). And that's not even counting my college gaming group which was... mostly OK, but not entirely.

 

[Minion X]

Unless Greenwood was so forward-thinking as to include equal numbers of male prostitutes as well?

You can ask ask him yourself if you track him down on the web, but this article should sum it up.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, let's face it--even if he weren't horribly racist, he wasn't that good a writer.

This is highly subjective so if that is your opinion, it is a fair one, but I would have to personally disagree a lot with this. I've read quite a bit of horror and I'd say he is a fascinating writer in terms of technique, style, evoking mood, and achieving a sense of horror and dread. I also find him quite creative and vastly prefer his material to the stuff for mythos written by other writers. I like both Lovecraft and Howards writing (Lovecraft does take more getting used to but I still remember the effect his writing style had on me when I first discovered him when I was young, and any time I go back, I am usually more impressed than I remembered). Also he is hugely influential on major writers.

 

[Minion X]

That the books that inspired Gygax in the original Appendix N aren't going to be the same things that inspire modern gamers. There are plenty of newer versions of eldritch horror that are going to be far better at inspiring people than Lovecraft was. I mean, let's face it--even if he weren't horribly racist, he wasn't that good a writer. He created a fascinating universe, but other people have done a better job in writing in it.

I contend that Lovecraft's works are unique because he channeled his anxieties, his fears, his phobias and his prejudices into his writing and created something raw and powerful that later authors who pay homage to him cannot imitate. It's like no matter how many people want to write like Tolkien, none of them have the same combination of scholarly knowledge, enduring passion for linguistics and mythology, and deep faith that was sorely tested in poverty and in war.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Dark Sun is unique among D&D settings in that the slavery is a cultural norm. It's not the result of a few evil people doing evil things; it's instead part of everyday society, and the only way to stop it would be to completely change the society from the ground up.

This is one of the reasons why it works and why it adds an important element to Dark Sun. It is a post apocalyptic setting where people are going back to a very survival and cruel based way of existence. Taking away the slavery element just files away that very important rough edge to it. At least it would do so for me. I think it is fair if people don't want slavery because they think too many people will find it off-putting, but I don't think it is as at all a reach for those of us making the argument that it adds something to the setting.

 

[the Jester]

I’m not recalling any famous modules having to do with religious wars in D&D which I’m quite sure would actually happen with gods that have demonstratable real world power attributable to them.

Check out Red Hand of Doom.