What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Bedrockgames]

Since slavery is a fundamental aspect of Dark Sun society as opposed to say a throwaway line for one race that could easily be excluded from any particular campaign and/or that aspect of the race easily excluded, I'd say your assessment is spot on and part of the issue. Do you sugarcoat the presentation? Because that kind of creates this cartoony, sanitized version of slavery and it's effects on the people subjected to it as well as their descendants, especially those with more modern/recent ties to it... and some/many could find that presentation of it as disrespectful or dismissive.

I wouldn't say this is necessarily sugarcoating it so much as making it age appropriate.

If the issue is the audience is a certain age (and many posters have expressed the concern over that issue---though I honestly think D&D has long targeted high school-college-age and above more than 12 or under), doing it the PG or Spartacus route can work. It might not get into the aspects of slavery that would be inappropriate for young people, but it does show how dehumanizing it is (one scene that always sticks with me is Spartacus working in the mine and having his teeth examined by, I believe, Batiatus (been a while and could have that detail wrong). That is a very PG way to demonstrate these people are being treated like animals (something about checking your teeth because it reveals how long you will be a healthy slave was impactful I thought). It isn't gritty and overt. There is one scene that was cut, which I think you can still see in certain version where they strongly allude to an impending sexual assault for one of the characters. It is actually a very well written script and quite a good movie for those who haven't scene it (certainly of its time in terms of how it presents things but it has some magnificent scenes). Also it doesn't shy away from things like Roman cruelty. It depicts the crucifixion of thousands of slaves and the lead character along the Appian way at the end of the Third Servile War. I would say you can still show it to someone under 12, it still captures the evils of slavery. Crucifixion of thousands is hardly a cartoonish depiction.

Now personally I don't think it needs to be PG. I think most groups are old enough to deal with this kind of content. But I would also say it is probably best to let individual groups handle how they want to address slavery. I would make it part of the setting, because it is a cruel world where slavery is a reality and life is cheap. How groups want to address that in play is up to them I think.

In general I think most people set this dial in their own campaign. You might have something like slavery present in a setting and the GM and players arrive at an understanding of where the line is in terms of how much reality of that gets depicted. A lot of groups would shy away from certain things even if they know those things are a likely aspect of it.

 

[Faolyn]

If you are talking Dark Sun, are you really detailing the horrors of slavery, like 12 years a Slave (2013) which was a 15 in the UK, or are you more talking how Spartacus (1960) deals with a slave revolt, but is a PG. I mean it's more down to how things are dealt with, than the topic itself.

This is mostly true, I'd say--although I'd point out that in the US, 12 Years A Slave is rated R and Spartacus is PG 13, not PG.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This is mostly true, I'd say--although I'd point out that in the US, 12 Years A Slave is rated R and Spartacus is PG 13, not PG.

That is surprising to hear. I haven't seen it in a while but I don't remember it feeling like it needed a PG-13 rating (even with the edited content put back in)

 

[Cadence]

That is surprising to hear. I haven't seen it in a while but I don't remember it feeling like it needed a PG-13 rating (even with the edited content put back in)

I'm guessing part of the skinny dipping and some of the battle and gladiator fight things didn't help?

Spartacus (1960) - Parents guide - IMDb

Spartacus (1960) - Parents guide and Certifications from around the world.

www.imdb.com

 

[MGibster]

That is surprising to hear. I haven't seen it in a while but I don't remember it feeling like it needed a PG-13 rating (even with the edited content put back in)

A dude does get his arm chopped off during a battle scene. There's also a convsersation between a senator and Spartacus' wife where the senator says something like, "Rome is a whore, but I love her." Plus there's the whole oysters and snails conversation.

 

[Bagpuss]

This is mostly true, I'd say--although I'd point out that in the US, 12 Years A Slave is rated R and Spartacus is PG 13, not PG.

Yeah but you're a bunch of prudes.

 

[Thourne]

Yeah but you're a bunch of prudes.

I assure you, not all of us lol

 

[Faolyn]

That's not true, at least for the second part, because people in this very thread have argued one of the reasons against the inclusion of slavery is that some players might have their characters become slavers.

...Which would mean it's about a company choosing to not include that sort of material.

Slavery is something that still affects people today--you don't have to even look at the Civil War; there's estimated to be 50 million people across the world who are enslaved at this moment. And even without that, there's bigots who want to go back to enslaving Black people.

I'm not sure you can say most of the customer base does find it unacceptable (to feature in an RPG) if you look at the results of the Dark Sun problematic content poll, they seem to show the exact opposite.



Then why do you want everything in the entire RPG industry geared to the same crowd that doesn't want to deal with difficult issues in an RPG, when clearly their is a significant proportion of the crowd that is fine with dealing with it?

216 people on a single forum is not a "significant proportion" of the gaming crowd.

Eclipse Phase has far worse and it's 12+

Amusingly, when I looked up Eclipse Phase age rating, I found it rated anywhere from 12+ to 14+, depending on the site or store that sells the product.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Slavery is something that still affects people today--you don't have to even look at the Civil War; there's estimated to be 50 million people across the world who are enslaved at this moment. And even without that, there's bigots who want to go back to enslaving Black people.

But every bad thing that can appear in movies, books, RPGs and other forms of art and entertainment, exist in the real world. Art and entertainment are meant to reflect and draw on reality (for a variety of aims). I don't think we need to take stuff off the table from our forms of entertainment because these things exist in the world (or because bad people might want those things to exist where they don't). I don't think including slavery in Dark Sun is going to bring slavery back to the US for example.

 

[Micah Sweet]

...Which would mean it's about a company choosing to not include that sort of material.

Slavery is something that still affects people today--you don't have to even look at the Civil War; there's estimated to be 50 million people across the world who are enslaved at this moment. And even without that, there's bigots who want to go back to enslaving Black people.


216 people on a single forum is not a "significant proportion" of the gaming crowd.


Amusingly, when I looked up Eclipse Phase age rating, I found it rated anywhere from 12+ to 14+, depending on the site or store that sells the product.

Sounds like an argument in favor of a per-product rating system. As it is, WotC and any other company changing their policy on these topics is literally leaving money on the table.