What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

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SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
Would you mind posting the link? I can't seem to find anything subsequent to late December, 2021, when they made the initial announcement about removing it as a topic from their content.
This is what I was able to find, which seems to say they aren't going to use it as the focus of adventures any more. So I think it's off the table. So I think you are correct. It is an example of content that is problematic being removed, even by the bad guys.
 

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Imaro

Legend
I agree that it isn’t diminished. The intrinsic value of his achievement is what it is.

If he were definitively found to have once been a slave, though, it adds to his accomplishment. That one could rise from the lowest echelons of a society and still make a permanent mark on history is a laudable achievement in and of itself, separate from but intertwined with his becoming a samurai.

Think of it this way: representation matters. There’s all kinds of studies that show this. Seeing others who have overcome the same or similar obstacles in life matters- it gives you hope that you can do likewise. And the sad truth is that slavery still exists today, worldwide, across religious and ethnic demographics. It’s just not “open and notorious.”

A less incendiary example: there’s lots of great guitarists in music history, and Django Reinhardt is one of them. His contributions to jazz, gypsy jazz, bebop and traditional Romani music are epic in scope, and would be sufficient to immortalize him. But he did what he did with a damaged fingering hand- only the index and middle functioned after his hand was damaged in a fire. He merely invented new techniques to circumvent his injuries.

Decades later, though, his story of finding a way to play guitar despite a terrible injury inspired Tony Iommi to keep playing and rethink his techniques and gear after he was injured, losing some fingertips at work, just as Black Sabbath were starting to get major attention. The history of metal and other entertainment would have been different had he given up.

And he didn’t give up because a Belgian jazz guitarist didn’t either.

And my point is the whole slavery angle when it comes to African/black achievements is overstated. Honestly I'm a little confused by your point when it comes to slavery specifically...Are you saying current slaves need representation in order to overcome adversity and that's why Yasuke being a slave is being harped on by some in the thread?

To be perfectly honest I would argue that for many black people constantly being reminded they were slaves with nearly every complement and/or achievement actually has an adverse effect at a certain point and that's what many of us are starting to feel like it's meant to do.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Slaves happy with their lot strikes me as a creepy mind control vibe.

stepford-wife.gif
 

Imaro

Legend
I just really have to question this. First, as someone in a very progressive part of the country, I hear about requests to simply remove content on problematic issues quite frequently. Paizo discussed removing slavery from any future APs although I believe they eventually walked it back. I am engaged in other role playing boards where issues like this come up all the time. I don't want to make the mods concerned about problematic "cross boards conflict" that's all I feel comfortable saying about it.

But beyond that: I have never seen a traditional RPG that presents issues like slavery and bigotry in a positive light. Yes, I know there are some, and I think we're better off not mentioning them. In Dark Sun, the Dragon Empire and the slavery it practices are the bad guys who you're trying to overthrow or punch in the face. They are like the bad guys in Indiana Jones films.
This came up in another thread I think... but the Templar was a class/kit/theme throughout every iteration of Dark Sun... not ex-Templar not Reformed Templar but a Templar serving the Dragon Kings... so while I agree with your statement above for the most part... I wouldn't claim it was a given.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
This came up in another thread I think... but the Templar was a class/kit/theme throughout every iteration of Dark Sun... not ex-Templar not Reformed Templar but a Templar serving the Dragon Kings... so while I agree with your statement above for the most part... I wouldn't claim it was a given.
Actually, there was no templar class in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (affiliate link), though WotC did re-release the class on their website in a downloadable file later on.

Note also that the aforementioned boxed set introduced Oronis, the only good-aligned Sorcerer-King, so you could very well be a templar of his (though that would probably require the DM to tweak the class's alignment restriction from its "neutral or evil only" listing, and I suspect that the class abilities, which tend to revolve around who you can have waylaid/locked up, would feel thematically inconsistent also).
 

Do you have any examples of games where they've depicted slaves as happy with their lot?
Got rid of my copy long ago, so I can't check, but I sure recall the AD&D 2e The Complete Book of Elves having non-elven slaves and prisoners of war who agree with the elves about how superior they are and how they love being their servants (mind you, this is hardly the only flaw the book has).
 


Kaodi

Hero
Was there a conversation about slavery I missed when Andor came out? I know that segment of the series did not last very long but that is what it was , 100%.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I always thought they were Ptolemaic pharaohs.
The Ptolemaic pharaohs were lighter skinned than the native Egyptians they ruled, yes, but probably not this pale of skin, blonde of hair or light of eyes:

1677715420685.jpeg


Clarifying: the image shown is one part of the image that appeared in the D&D product, and has been used in a bunch of other products. The redditor who posted this claims it’s from a textbook. I’ve seen it in ads for casino slots apps.

I’ve posted it instead of continuing searching for the D&D version (with the equally caucasian woman) because it’s seemingly buried under extraneous results. However, if requested, I can and will photograph and post it from my own collection when I get the chance.

Correction: the image above is NOT the one that appeared in a D&D product. Alzirus posted the correct one below.

Here’s a direct link:
That isn't the image from the AD&D Second Edition Legends & Lore (affiliate link). Flipping through my copy, this is what's shown:

L-L-Pharaohs.jpg
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Do you have any examples of games where they've depicted slaves as happy with their lot?
In gaming? No I don’t, but it’s a frequent assertion by those who try to minimize the horrors of slavery in Pre-Civil War American society, and began while the evidence of slavery’s cruelty could be seen on a daily basis,

Given the existence of games like RaHoWa, though, I wouldn’t be surprised to find it in a game somewhere.
 

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