What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Dannyalcatraz]

I just really have to question this. First, as someone in a very progressive part of the country, I hear about requests to simply remove content on problematic issues quite frequently. Paizo discussed removing slavery from any future APs although I believe they eventually walked it back. I am engaged in other role playing boards where issues like this come up all the time. I don't want to make the mods concerned about problematic "cross boards conflict" that's all I feel comfortable saying about it.

My own experience with these discussions is purely what I’ve seen here in ENWorld, and mostly after I got asked to be a moderator. The discussions I saw were generally kicked off with people defending or attacking the content disclaimer on certain older D&D products.

Most of the pro-disclaimer posts I can recall simply asked that future products be handled with care and avoid stereotyping, not asking for excisions & expungements from the games.

Your experiences clearly differed.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And my point is the whole slavery angle when it comes to African/black achievements is overstated. Honestly I'm a little confused by your point when it comes to slavery specifically...Are you saying current slaves need representation in order to overcome adversity and that's why Yasuke being a slave is being harped on by some in the thread?

That’s one thing I asserted, yes.

I also asserted that telling a person’s whole story is important to understanding how and why that person accomplished what they did. That’s why I also brought up the fact that many of America’s founding fathers and early leaders were also slaveholders, even as they espoused equality for all men.

Ignoring or glossing over important facts does no one any favors.

To be perfectly honest I would argue that for many black people constantly being reminded they were slaves with nearly every complement and/or achievement actually has an adverse effect at a certain point and that's what many of us are starting to feel like it's meant to do.

I would assert that we’re not monolithic either way. I‘ve certainly encountered other blacks who indeed felt that way. They consistently glossed over those details in historical discussions.

My family, OTOH, does not. To be clear, I make no claim that my family is the norm. But we don’t shy away from the reality of history.

 

[Imaro]

My family, OTOH, does not. To be clear, I make no claim that my family is the norm. But we don’t shy away from the reality of history.

I would be careful with the whole "shying away" statement as it seems to imply that is the motivation of those who are looking to put less emphasis on slavery when telling the multitude of black stories that exist. As someone said its not known for sure whether Yasuke was a slave or not but its easily accepted by most because of how prominent slavery has been tied to black identity.

Some of us can accept the realities of what has happened in the past and its effects in the present without wanting to wallow in it for enjoyment or continuously have it on display as entertainment for others... I'd argue its impossible to shy away from something that is continuously on display and reinforced on a regular basis. Its more akin to wanting to explore the other aspects of one's heroes, culture, myths, self, etc just as much as, if not more than the slavery aspect.

Honestly this is probably my last post on this subject as I feel it's run its course.

 

[MGibster]

Got rid of my copy long ago, so I can't check, but I sure recall the AD&D 2e The Complete Book of Elves having non-elven slaves and prisoners of war who agree with the elves about how superior they are and how they love being their servants (mind you, this is hardly the only flaw the book has).

This is likely the single most hated 2nd edition I ever purchased and 40% of that is for the blade singer alone. I don't remember the captives, but it's been about 25 years since I sold my AD&D collection off.

In gaming? No I don’t, but it’s a frequent assertion by those who try to minimize the horrors of slavery in Pre-Civil War American society, and began while the evidence of slavery’s cruelty could be seen on a daily basis,

Yeah, all part of that good old Lost Cause narrative where they weren't mistreated, no sir, they were like members of the family. I used to deal with Lost Causers like the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans at work (museum) and it was quite interesting. Many of them just assumed because I was white and our museum had Civil War displays that I was on their side. "No, I'm afraid I'm a good Union man!"

Given the existence of games like RaHoWa, though, I wouldn’t be surprised to find it in a game somewhere.

We ought to be able to find an example though. While they never portrayed happy slaves, Deadlands as originally written reinforced the Lost Cause narrative by featuring a Confederate States of America still in business as of 1876 having abolished slavery. I don't believe this was deliberate on their part, but it was hard not to see. And frankly, I can suspend my disbelief when it comes to the dead rising on battlefields but the South essentially winning the war was hard to swallow.

 

[Alzrius]

The Ptolemaic pharaohs were lighter skinned than the native Egyptians they ruled, yes, but probably not this pale of skin, blonde of hair or light of eyes:

View attachment 277029

Clarifying: the image shown is one part of the image that appeared in the D&D product, and has been used in a bunch of other products. The redditor who posted this claims it’s from a textbook. I’ve seen it in ads for casino slots apps.

I’ve posted it instead of continuing searching for the D&D version (with the equally caucasian woman) because it’s seemingly buried under extraneous results. However, if requested, I can and will photograph and post it from my own collection when I get the chance.

That isn't the image from the AD&D Second Edition Legends & Lore (affiliate link). Flipping through my copy, this is what's shown:

 

[JiffyPopTart]

But by constantly harping on the slavery and colonialism, you keep implying that Yasuke's story would NOT be compelling absent the slavery and colonialism context. I mean, it's true that colonialism is what took him to Japan and it's most likely slavery that first brought him to contact with the Jesuit colonizers. But nothing past that point drives the compelling nature of his story?

Isn't a person's story their entire life timeline, though? Why are you giving someone grief because they find parts of a biography more crucial than you do?

My wife might find their story interesting because they were a birder...and I might because they were left handed. There isn't one right thing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I would be careful with the whole "shying away" statement as it seems to imply that is the motivation of those who are looking to put less emphasis on slavery when telling the multitude of black stories that exist.

I used that exact phrase deliberately because of my own family’s history- some published in books, some only passed by word of mouth.

Individuals in my family can trace our heritage to at least 4-5 continents. Some of our ancestors came here freely, but not all. There’s pretty good evidence some of my family’s American ancestors owned some of our other ancestors. In some cases, that’s led to reunification. In others, barriers were strengthened.

And this knowledge is passed along as thoroughly as possible. We don’t “shy away” from it because there’s danger in not knowing. Putting aside the fact branches of our family that would love to see a return America to pre-1860s dynamics, there’s modern evils to address.

In the 1990s, there was a serious rekindling of antisemitism in the black community, and two of my (then teenaged) male cousins were headed down that path. Since their jackass dad didn’t care, it fell to me to tell them about themselves.

Nobody had ever told them our mutual grandmother was a convert to Christianity. Our great-grandmother was Jewish. She could almost pass, but her mixed race still got her ostracized from parts of the family. Her skills as a modiste (and remaining family contacts), however, gave her enough power to occasionally say “No.” to certain requests made by whites.

That truth helped short-circuited my cousins’ overt flirtations with at least THAT form of bigotry…though the younger occasionally still shows spasms of it.

As someone said its not known for sure whether Yasuke was a slave or not but its easily accepted by most because of how prominent slavery has been tied to black identity.

As I said in that context, I don’t know the truth of it either way, and I hope whichever proves false gets done away with.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That isn't the image from the AD&D Second Edition Legends & Lore (affiliate link). Flipping through my copy, this is what's shown:

THAT’s it! Thank you for correcting my error!

It still begs the question: why would anyone think they’re Ptolemaic? Pale skin, blonde hair, and light-colored eyes? Blondness was something associated the Thracians and the dyed-hair of prostitutes.

I know Apollo & Aphrodite were depicted as blondes, as was Menelaus. Were there any others of note?

 

[Alzrius]

I know Apollo & Aphrodite were depicted as blondes, as was Menelaus. Were there any others of note?

Peleus, Achilles, Meleager, Agamede, and Rhadamanthys, among others:

Historian and Egyptologist Joann Fletcher asserts that the Macedonian ruler Alexander the Great and members of the Macedonian-Greek Ptolemaic dynasty of Hellenistic Egypt had blond hair, such as Arsinoe II and Berenice II.

 

[Fenris-77]

Are most of our games studying history, or merely aping history for unearned emotional beats?

Are those the only two options? I think there's a lot of range in 'study' anyway. That said, tour second option is certainly a possibility and one to be avoided.