What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

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Fair enough but surely you can see how being the majority at the table is relevant here

It's less about being the majority at the table and more about understanding how certain people will react to certain things. If they had said it made you feel uncomfortable, you probably would have not played the game and moved on. But they might have been afraid that you'd take it personally, that they were commenting on you being antisemitic, or that you were at being insensitive. Now you can take that a variety of ways, from being extra apologetic to getting very sensitive about the topic. I've had this conversation with someone before. Again, it's enlightening if you haven't had it.
 

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It's less about being the majority at the table and more about understanding how certain people will react to certain things. If they had said it made you feel uncomfortable, you probably would have not played the game and moved on. But they might have been afraid that you'd take it personally, that they were commenting on you being antisemitic, or that you were at being insensitive. Now you can take that a variety of ways, from being extra apologetic to getting very sensitive about the topic. I've had this conversation with someone before. Again, it's enlightening if you haven't had it.

That wasn’t the dynamic. Like I said we shared similar backgrounds.
 


MGibster

Legend
Yes.

Why would you think differently?
Hussar's right. I've been in uncomfortable situations where I just decided the best thing to do was to keep my mouth shut and walk away. If someon were offended, bothered, or otherwise uncomfortable with some aspect of the game, they'd likely not say anything.
 

Hussar's right. I've been in uncomfortable situations where I just decided the best thing to do was to keep my mouth shut and walk away. If someon were offended, bothered, or otherwise uncomfortable with some aspect of the game, they'd likely not say anything.

I mean, there was a major row when a well-known DM basically narrated a sexual assault on a character on a stream and basically no one let's on how bad they felt until they were off-camera. That sort of situation isn't completely comparable, but there is often a lot of pressure to go along with something even if it makes you feel uncomfortable.
 


I mean, yeah? It's pretty bad when your answer doesn't talk about the usage or the importance of the thing being talked about, but only references the fact that it was there before, thus it should continue to stay there. It's basically conceding that it has no place or importance beyond a strict adherence to previous lore.

That's, like, the poster-child for the bad usage of something if you can't think of a better reason to keep it than "It was already there".
Why do we need Psionics in Dark Sun? i.e. We don't.
I could go on about other things in Dark Sun... and you will find we can strip it bare...you tell me where the line is for when it doesn't feel like DS anymore.
 

Hussar

Legend
Why do we need Psionics in Dark Sun? i.e. We don't.
I could go on about other things in Dark Sun... and you will find we can strip it bare...you tell me where the line is for when it doesn't feel like DS anymore.

It would be weird to have a Dark Sun with no Psionics though. As I the main element for the setting - that every single person in the setting is psionic. Stripping out psionics would be a much larger change to the setting than removing slavery.

My point being that psionics probably features in every single session of every Dark Sun game ever played.

The same is not true for slavery.
 

Sure. But that shows that these sort of things can and should change as time progresses.
I don't want to rehash the Ravenloft debate around the new book, and I have no issue with it being put out in the form it was (I disagree with many of the creative choices, but I think they had a vision of it and they made it, which is fine, and a lot of talented people worked on it). But on this particular choice, I definitely think it is one of the areas of the new setting book where it loses something for me where I feel the original was more interesting. I do think this is subjective, but my point is more this isn't about things should be X or they should be Y, or that Z is too hot of a topic to even entertain anymore. For me the old Falkovnia worked great for gaming when it came up. I get that the new one shifts the focus to something else gameable (which I can at least appreciate). But I prefer having that ability to get into stories that draw on WWII, the Holocaust as well as behind the iron curtain themes. There is a lot you can do there. I don't really need an external zombie threat, when the evil in Falkovnia was actually very human and worked splendidly for adventures (it was one of a handful of domains, including Kartakass and a few others) that I used to run a lot because I found them so good for adventure ideas.
 

I feel like this is just a bunch of pearl-clutching and trying to avoid critique by appealing to the idea of "social media" inherently just going off on people.

No offense, genuinely, but 'pearl clutching' labels are generally pretty weak in my view in gaming debates. If you think it's pearl clutching, fair enough I suppose, but it isn't a label I am too worried about. I don't see this as pearl clutching but as a reasonable concern.

I would also say it isn't about writing off criticism. Criticism of ideas is fine. After all I am engaging your critiques even if I don't agree with them, and I am not saying you are digitally dragging me through the mud or anything like that. But digital dragging happens around these kinds of conversations and I think where it does, it isn't very helpful and it often enters into cruelty. If the online critiques about this stuff were limited to the kinds of conversation we are having here, I would take no issue with the direction things are heading.

If you write about something, you will be critiqued. You seem to be afraid of what that critique will be. If that's the case, then maybe you should think about what you write before you write it. If you have a bad reason to justify how or why you wrote something that is being critiqued, that is more your problem than the person critiquing you.


I think there are reasonable criticisms but there are also criticism that go too far in the direction of personal attack. I don't want to see people attacked personally for their creative choices, especially when labels get affixed to them that aren't accurate. And this is something I don't like seeing from either direction. Even if I strongly disagree with a creative choice, like for example if they made a more politically correct dark sun, I felt was very pablum, I don't think the creators deserve to be attacked on social media or potential lose work because people decide to go after them personally and affix labels to them. I'd much prefer things stay focused on the content (and here we are all largely doing that). I can understand why someone might make creative choices shaped by a worldview where they are trying to be empathetic to readers and players, and I wouldn't want to turn the debate over content, into a debate about them as people. It is a complicated issue, and it involves morality so people are going to land in different places and I think most people making this kind of stuff feel like they are doing the right thing (which I don't think is objectionable even if I disagree with the creative choices, and think their conclusions on the moral questions miss the mark, or at least are a bit misguided---I do believe hearts are in the right place and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt).
These are things artists should think about when they broach sensitive topics. Would we give a pass to someone putting a poor portrayal of sexual violence in their game if their reasoning was "It felt right"?

I don't give artists a pass for anything. I also don't think have a responsibility to society or propriety when they create things (sometimes it is important for artists to push boundaries). I always judge the work honestly. And in RPGs sexual violence is something I don't like seeing in products I buy. I find it extremely off-putting and I also don't think most gamers expect to see material that rises to NC-17 or X in a typical gaming product (not saying it shouldn't exist, just there are obvious reasons this is something people aren't expecting).

That is just my personal taste, if a designer includes that element, I am happy to critique as something I don't like, and something I think many groups would have difficulty figuring out. I would likely even be a bit offended by it. But that is where I would also end my criticism, at the content level. I wouldn't want to see the person dragged through the coals or labeled something that results in effective ostracizing. Especially when I don't know why they are choosing to include that topic (I've known writers for example who were victims of sexual assault who returned to that as a theme in order to deal with it and work through it). And while there are better ways and worse ways to handle and approach sensitive topics, I think failing to understand all the social complexities of doing so (particularly today where it can involve knowing a good deal about a fairly complicated web of new social etiquette), doesn't make a person a bad artists, writer, designer or person (certainly doesn't mean they need to be excluded). And that is what I was talking about in my post. The tendency for these things to reach levels where they truly impact the lives of of creatives (personally, financially, etc) where they are almost made to stand trial, rather than just deal with a few bad reviews or angry tweets. That sort of thing has a chilling effect on the creative community.
 

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