What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[AnotherGuy]

Nothing wrong with that, but generally it's been between players from my experience rather than with NPCs.

Really? Are we talking players that are a couple IRL?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Frankly, if I want sexy art, I look for books or sources dedicated to it. I don’t need it in my RPG manuals- unless the RPG is dedicated to such things, I guess.

This is a fallacy, in that it presents false reasoning.

No significant proportion of the audience is buying non-erotic-focused TTRPGs, videogames, etc. for "sexy art" as were. However, that does not in any way mean that such creations should not have "sexy art" in them. There's an underlying prudish sentiment that's being taken as read, taken as common, when it actually isn't. This idea that media/artwork is either "sexual" or "not sexual". That there's some thick and obvious dividing line, and the related idea - a very American Puritan one, that it's dangerous or wildly inappropriate to expose people to anything "sexy" when that wasn't the obvious focus of the product.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting you're personally a prude, but the idea that unless an RPG is "dedicated" to the erotic, nothing "sexy" should be depicted in it is absolutely a prudish and puritanical idea, and rather culturally specific to the US (albeit disturbingly common there).

The reality is, unless the book is specifically aimed at children, it's probably fine for the artists/creators who make it, to include some artwork which some people will regard as "sexy" or "risque" or whatever. It's not required that it be included, but equally, the idea that it shouldn't be included simply because the RPG isn't "dedicated" to that is a faulty one.

This is important to me because it's a fundamental artistic freedom, and honestly a lot of good art involves an element of sexuality or sensuality. And when people dislike that, or just want to draw lines around what is "okay", it also (surprise surprise) tends to be LGBTQ+ sexuality/sensuality that gets picked up and kicked out first.

Specifically I'll be sad if all/most TTRPGs end up like this - Everyone Is Beautiful and No One Is Horny - Blood Knife

I know I'm extending a lot from a short post, and I don't expect you intend prudishness or the like, but I do think you're illustrating a poorly-examined/unreflected bias that's unfortunately increasingly common today.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I have a strong hunch that when most people say "flirtatious and titillating," what they mean is, "can my fighter have sex with the bar maid."

Just to be clear here, I am talking strictly about art in books. I don't personally care for things getting into that territory in RPGs (nothing against people who do, I just find it socially embarrassing, uncomfortable and feel there are too many issues that come up). Thing like romantic relationships might happen in a campaign but they are usually dealt with off camera or if we need to understand what is happening between characters, in the second person (i.e. My character takes her on a date in the park for the afternoon) and we leave it at that with out getting into details.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So do I need future editions of the game to feature helpless harem girls with Charisma 18 for all of this? Probably not but I cannot say for certain that I would have come up with the idea if the adventure in question hadn't existed.

That last sentence sums up for me the argument against removing controversial content altogether from the hobby or even a mature D&D line.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This is a fallacy, in that it presents false reasoning.

No significant proportion of the audience is buying non-erotic-focused TTRPGs, videogames, etc. for "sexy art" as were. However, that does not in any way mean that such creations should not have "sexy art" in them. There's an underlying prudish sentiment that's being taken as read, taken as common, when it actually isn't. This idea that media/artwork is either "sexual" or "not sexual". That there's some thick and obvious dividing line, and the related idea - a very American Puritan one, that it's dangerous or wildly inappropriate to expose people to anything "sexy" when that wasn't the obvious focus of the product.

This gets at what I am trying to say a lot better than I have been able to. That art depicting the beauty of the human form isn't necessarily sexual. I do martial arts and fitness (less now as I am older and have a lot of chronic illnesses, but I still dabble in them as much as I can). For me a movie like Conan, or artwork in that vein, is more about how amazing it is that the human body can be pushed to such levels of physical athleticism and performance. Obviously Arnold is an ideal (I myself am 5'7" and have a leaner build so it would be insane for me to emulate his physique). But there is something very compelling about the two leads in that movies, and imagery that captures a similar style. I don't consider it sexual or sexy though (anymore than a martial arts in peak physical condition performing a kata is sexy). But these things can also be perceived as sexy (and Conan has a moments in it that are)

To be clear, I'm not suggesting you're personally a prude, but the idea that unless an RPG is "dedicated" to the erotic, nothing "sexy" should be depicted in it is absolutely a prudish and puritanical idea, and rather culturally specific to the US (albeit disturbingly common there).

I made a book once that was inspired by Strange Tales from the Chinese Studio, which as a work contains sensual elements, but it isn't like it's all erotic. So the RPG book included a handful of images I thought tastefully captured those aspects of it. The game itself is a far cry from erotic. It's about fighting monsters, investigating the supernatural, etc. But in some of the backstories to adventures, having an NPC who is say in love with a Fox Spirit, seemed appropriate. That is about the extent of it. So the images help contribute to that theme.

The reality is, unless the book is specifically aimed at children, it's probably fine for the artists/creators who make it, to include some artwork which some people will regard as "sexy" or "risque" or whatever. It's not required that it be included, but equally, the idea that it shouldn't be included simply because the RPG isn't "dedicated" to that is a faulty one.

I agree. This is where I think the whole 'kids 12 and under are part of the audience' thing is being misused somewhat in this discussion. It has become a kind of 'think of the children' argument. I was probably 11 or so when I started. I never got the feeling that RPGs were aimed at me. I liked them because they seemed to be targeting an older audience (and anyone who has read the players handbook, knows it is written in a dense style, with high word count, and not something that is written towards 12 year olds). That said, I don't think including blatant pornography would be appropriate for a game like D&D. But I remember there being a handful of racier images in some of the books. Whatever people think of that style of art in terms of whether they could make it into the PHB and DMG today, they didn't have much impact on me (there were far racier things at the check out stand where I used to buy candy or on TV).

This is important to me because it's a fundamental artistic freedom, and honestly a lot of good art involves an element of sexuality or sensuality. And when people dislike that, or just want to draw lines around what is "okay", it also (surprise surprise) tends to be LGBTQ+ sexuality/sensuality that gets picked up and kicked out first.

This is where I am coming from on this as well. I think a lot of my view of it is shaped by coming of age in the 90s, when artist freedom, artists pushing boundaries, was linked to a lot of progressive social issues (though to be fair, in the US, censorship has often been a confluence of religious right elements and parental concern elements on the left, as we had with the PMRC). I was also raised by former hippies so that might have something to do with it too.

 

[Scribe]

Specifically I'll be sad if all/most TTRPGs end up like this - Everyone Is Beautiful and No One Is Horny - Blood Knife

Yes, it is sad. Great link.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Specifically I'll be sad if all/most TTRPGs end up like this - Everyone Is Beautiful and No One Is Horny - Blood Knife

I know I'm extending a lot from a short post, and I don't expect you intend prudishness or the like, but I do think you're illustrating a poorly-examined/unreflected bias that's unfortunately increasingly common today.

That is a very interesting article. Reading it now.

 

[Maxperson]

There’s somewhat of a difference between skipping a book just because it doesn’t appeal to you and sitting down at a table of strangers to play a “fight your way out of slavery” scenario that you didn’t write and are told to run/play if you want to participate.

How is this different from sitting down at a table of strangers to play a heist scenario that you didn't write and are told to run/play if you want to participate? If you don't like something, you aren't going to want to have to play it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I agree. This is where I think the whole 'kids 12 and under are part of the audience' thing is being misused somewhat in this discussion. It has become a kind of 'think of the children' argument.

Yeah and unfortunately it's coming at art from both sides of the political spectrum. On one side, it's being used as a tool to try and relitigate the LGBTQ+ debate (which was basically over, for the most part), and to oppress those groups - and "think of the children" and "it ain't right" and appeals to the idea of "if it makes you uncomfortable, it's inherently bad" are a huge part of that. On the other, you have a lot of what people on Twitter refer to as "22-year-old minors" who are people aged like, 18-30 basically who feel they should never under any circumstances be made even remotely uncomfortable by anything at all, and for some that absolutely includes art or writing which might be considered "sexy" unless it's like, carefully separated off with a massive cordon sanitaire around it. - they're people who basically brought up in the "Everyone is beautiful, no-one is horny" paradigm, or formed their current identities during it - I think this latter group will grow out of it for the most part at least.

 

[Scribe]

There are too many things I could pull out of that article, but yeah it really captures the vibe of a lot that is going on and being discussed.

Over sanitized, safe, removed from the reality of well, the reality of humanity. Like how people, with bodies, function.

Thanks again for the link @Ruin Explorer I guess its a good thing we dont have "Thread Block" as a function around here after all.