What would a fighter versatile out of combat look like?

[JamesonCourage]

That's kind of a hard call. Like most things, I like it being kind of open. A lot of your suggestions are good, and a lot of mine would line up with Celebrim's, too.

In my RPG, you'd probably get it via skills (and every PC gets the same amount unless the pay for more). Some good Fighter skills depend on your stats, obviously. I'll leave out most of the directly skirmish-useful (but not combat-related) stuff.

• Intelligence: The smart Fighter:[sblock]
  • The Appraise skill (detect forgeries, find work in a town for any profession, identify item features and price, determine a bit of item history)
  • The Assess skill (determining DCs or making limited predictions, like what someone is thinking about doing or is currently readying, guess what somebody's profession is; it's also the primary skill for the Int-based Martial Stance)
  • The Comprehension skill (kind of a reading / writing / math skill, also relates to solving puzzles and deciphering codes)
  • Any of the nine Craft skills (good for creating items, repairing items, etc.)
  • The Forgery skill (craft fake documents, craft fake objects with the appropriate Craft skill)
  • Any of the nine Knowledge skills (good for knowing about the subject, ability to research it better, ability to study it for a bonus on other skills that relate to it)
  • The Tactics skill (commanding troops in battle plus some skirmish abilities)
  • Perform the Guide role during long periods of travel
  • Skill-based feats hit more areas the smarter you are
  [/sblock]

• Wisdom: The wise Fighter:[sblock]
  • The Concentration skill (acting while hurt, taking a 20 faster than normal, feigning death, acting while dazed or stunned, controlling your emotions, and various "supernatural" effects like bending spears or gaining minor elemental resistances; it's also the primary skill for the Wis-based Martial Stance)
  • The Empathy skill (good for connecting with creatures one on one and manipulating them)
  • The Heal skill (good for treating injuries / diseases / poisons, can lessen or eliminate penalties that even magic can't, can determine cause of wounds / perform autopsies, can restore temporary hit points [a kind of stamina], torture)
  • The Profession skill (a stand-in skill for a variety of tasks; the Profession [sailor] skill would let you roll your Profession check instead of Balance when standing on a wet surface, for example)
  • The Sense Motive skill (cold readings, counseling, detecting deception, picking up secret messages, evaluating social situations, haggling, getting hunches, reducing fear penalties, sensing magical compulsions)
  • The Survival skill (collect food [including better quality food that give bonuses], gather natural antidotes, healing herbs, or other alchemical substances, track, confuse trackers, cover tracks)
  • Perform the Hunter role during long periods of travel
  • Have a better memory
  • Get GM advice before making a stupid decision
  [/sblock]

• Charisma: The charismatic Fighter:[sblock]
  • The Bluff skill (deception, creating diversions, delivering secret messages, playfully [or not] insulting others, cause a creature to think about something, hide your emotions; one of the primary skills for the Charisma-based Martial Stance)
  • The Disguise skill (camouflage, convince others you're casting a dangerous spell, disguising creatures, mimic voices and sounds)
  • The Handle Animal skill (get animals to perform actions, breeding animals, changing the temperament of animals, granting animals experience, placating animals, retraining tricks or training new ones, raising wild animals, throwing riders from their mounts)
  • The Intimidate skill (Intimidate others so that it's easier to Negotiation with them, bring attention to yourself, abuse others without leaving marks, cause others to flee, bully creatures over time, scare enemies temporarily to give them penalties or keep them in place, not react when injured, scare off aggressors)
  • The Leadership skill (raise an army's moral so that it fights harder, keep an army from routing, gather information in a town, grant a bonus to an ally, rally a crowd so that it's easier to Negotiate with them, observe a community and pick up unspoken social rules, spread rumors, perform aid another at a distance or with greater bonuses)
  • The Negotiation skill (complicate a discussion, make a treaty, convince other creatures to do something; used to devastating effect by those truly proficient)
  • One of the eleven Perform skills (perform at various levels of skill, distract others and make it easier to Negotiate with them, help companions during a forced march)
  • Perform the Relax role during long periods of travel
  • Bonus on Fame checks to gain Fame points (points you can spend for some narrative control, such as gaining a follower, being gifted a new item, calling in a favor, moving up one of three social ladders, gain a reputation when recognized, gain an income, etc.)
  • Gain a bonus on Recognition checks to be recognized
  [/sblock]

• Strength: The strong Fighter: [sblock]
  • The Climb skill (climbing, catching yourself or others while falling, cling to a wall, slide down the side of something)
  • The Jump skill (long jumping, high jumping, jumping down safely, jump off a wall)
  • The Swim skill (swimming, treading water, diving into water safely, holding your breath longer, swim faster, sit still in the water, 'jump' while underwater)
  • Determine carrying capacity (fly while carrying more, lift fallen allies, carry a lot, etc.)
  • Perform acts of strength (bend or break objects, determine how far you can throw things, push or drag objects)
  • Perform Feats of Strength (gain automatic success on a Str check, perform Str checks you aren't normally capable of doing)
  • Perform the Scout role during long periods of travel.
  [/sblock]

• Dexterity: The agile Fighter: [sblock]
  • The Balance skill (balance on ledges or slick surfaces, cause other balancing creatures to fall while you remain standing, walk on your toes to gain a bonus to stealth)
  • The Escape Artist skill (escape from bonds, hide your escape, escape from being grappled, squeeze through tight spaces, perform contortionist acts)
  • The Evasion skill (distract others, displace yourself beneath a cloak or sheet, gain more temporary hit points while defensive, stand up reactively, move through difficult terrain easier)
  • The Fly skill (negate falling damage, fly through hard winds, fly up faster, hover, fly-action-continue to fly)
  • The Hide skill (hide yourself, stay behind someone as they look around, create a diversion, snipe, follow someone discreetly, blend into the background of a crowd)
  • The Land skill (run faster, run without being flat-footed, move-act-move, move through difficult terrain easier)
  • The Move Silently skill (move silently, reduce sound of your attack, draw an item quietly, cause a sound-based distraction)
  • The Ride skill (ride in tight spaces, control mount, gain cover, quickly mount/dismount, have mount attack, hide under mount, have mount leap obstacles, gain AC for you and mount while dodging, have your mount roll over, take less damage while falling from a mount, stay in the saddle when your mount rears or bolts, spur your mount to move faster; also the primary skill for Riding Maneuvers, such as Lasso or Leaping Tackle)
  • The Sleight of Hand skill (juggle, tying knots, concealing objects, stealing items, patting someone down, planting items, rappeling, securing a grappling hook, swinging on a rope)
  • The Tinkering skill (copy a key, disable traps, modify a device, open a lock, spring a trap)
  • Perform the Stealth role during long periods of travel
  [/sblock]

• Constitution: The tough Fighter:[sblock]

• The Listen skill (hear things, pick up exact location and exact cause of the sound, determine echo locations)
• The Spot skill (see things, read lips, search areas)
• Control of your other senses (scent, touch, taste)
• Have more hit points (meat) and so do individual body parts
• Have more temporary hit points (stamina)
• Recover temporary hit points faster
• Fight off disease, poison, infections, and drugs
• Perform acts of endurance (run longer, hold your breath longer, withstand weather, hold your liquor, etc.)
• Perform the Watch role during long periods of travel
• Have most traits, such as disease resistance, work better (as most traits are tied into Constitution)

[/sblock]

• Then, of course, there are feats:[sblock]
  • Fame-related feats (bonuses when spending Fame points in certain ways)
  • Skill feats (bonuses to skills, reduce penalties to skill uses, perform skills faster, take a 10 on skills)
  • Trait feats (bonus to traits, can take a 10)
  • Inventor (you can craft inventions that others just can't craft; incredibly useful when you have time and are good at crafting)
  • Initiative feats (bonuses, rerolls, can take a 10, acts in surprise)
  • Bodyguard feats (give bonuses to otthers, step in the way so attacks are redirected to you)
  • Supernatural feats (detect a specific type of creature, glimpse of the future, detect your soul mate)
  • Endurance feats (bonus to endurance checks, act in the negatives, reduce damage when you would drop, fall deeper into the negatives, bonus on checks that would kill you if you fail, shake off or delay harmful effects)
  • Sleep feats (need less sleep, no penalties to Listen/Spot/Reflex while sleeping)
  • Miscellaneous feats (devotion to a cause, ambidexterity, gut instinct, fast healer, raised by another race, born with a trait, well known or specifically not well known, etc.)
  [/sblock]

My RPG is well-suited to making characters, not classes, to be honest (though my players were using a class-based version of it when we last played it). The Warrior class (like the Fighter) didn't emphasize any skills, though they get get a bonus feat every level (including putting it into skill-based feats, if they wanted to). However, most of their abilities involved fighter (as the Warrior class): signature moves, bonus Technique Points, getting to be in two Martial Stances at once, extra hit points or temporary hit points, etc. If you wanted more non-combat stuff, you'd multi-class (probably into Factotum, but maybe Ranger).

If I were to make a D&D-based Fighter... well, I'd likely give it some of the following:

• Something like my Leadership and Tactics skills (aid another bonuses, bonuses in skirmishes to yourself and others, provoking openings, leading troops in mass combat, inspiring speeches, short and long term buffs to allies, etc)
• Something like the Assess skill (determine DCs, predict enemy thoughts in combat)
• Something like the Sense Motive skill (pick up on deceptions, see through illusions)
• Something with the Heal skill (treating injuries / poisons / diseases / etc., treating conditions or status effects, deducing what caused a wound or damage)
• I wouldn't push Intimidate, but I'd make it available
• Most movement skill uses are good, too (Climb, Jump, Swim, Evasion, Land).
• So are the watchman skills (Spot, Listen)
• The ability to sleep less and with less penalties (miss potentially days of sleep with no penalty)
• The ability to sleep in armor and in poor conditions with no penalty
• I'd likely give them the ability to shrug off fear effects
• Rerolls
• Knowledge skills (history, architecture, nobility, geography) and Crafting (metal, wood)
• Good HP, good saves, good AC
• Good reactions (initiative, maybe more Reactions in a round)
• Ability to handle mounts and perform riding maneuvers

I'm sure I'd adjust things here and there, but it's a start. I think it'd be better, but I don't want to step on the toes of certain other classes, either (Rogue, Ranger, Bard). Just my initial thoughts on it, anyway.

 

[Quickleaf]

I do remember and that was always my take (as well as Zorro, Dartagnan, Errol Flynn, Wesley and all the relevant swashbucklers).

I always had trouble pegging those swashbucklers as fighters or rogues!

I think a simple solution to the ability score issue is to let Light weapons be used with full Dexterity modifier for attack and damage as a general game rule.

About the skill issue... Heck, the system could give all classes the same number of trained skills to start, with no list of class skills (and certain classes like Rogues could get bonus skills as part of their starting package).

When it comes to versatility - and I think that is the main rub when comparing fighters with other classes - I find the vast majority of 4e's utility powers boring and limited. They're mostly limited to combat applications, and even then it's a narrow one-shot thing in combat. The ideas of Renown, Arming Lore, Siegecraft, or whatever are much more in line with how I think "utility powers" should have been done.

It's sort of 3.25++. I don't like the direction 3.5 took, though I did borrow some stuff from it.

That's interesting, I like the ideas behind your Tactics skill. I'm doing something a bit similar (though different as well) using 4e as my base.

I wonder was 4e the first edition to formally remove the concept of Facing? I remember when we played 2e it barely ever came up, and then it was purely in the narrative, we didnt use it as a combat rule. "Which way is the guard looking?" "Ok, I throw a rock over there and then sneak by."

 

[Li Shenron]

Evaluate Combatant

Campaigning

Chopping Wood & Mining Gold

Grit

Scarred Reputation

Tankard

I would probably start by considering real-life analogies, but there is more than one. For instance, is a Fighter more similar to a real-life soldier/military? To a martial artist? To a fencing sport athlete? What do they have in common?

I would start from the commonalities, and let instead what is not common be optional. E.g. your "Campaigning" suggestion is very appropriate for the solider, but not for the martial artist. Thus I would not want this to be a default ability of all Fighters, but only those who represent the more narrow concept of guard/militia/troops. Hence optional: it can definitely be a subclass feature for example. If it's a base class feature, it implies that every Fighter knows battle tactics, and that restricts the class to a narrowed archetype.

"Evaluate combatant" is fine, but it's still an in-combat use! Sure it can be used to avoid combat, but the subject is still combat.

OTOH the other 4 are all good ideas IMO! Basically what all those fighters have in common, is that they all train their body and mind for defense against danger, whether that means avoidance, withstanding/resilience or offense (either preemptively or as a counter). The latter is a bit trickier to think out-of-combat, but avoidance and resilience can with some stretch apply to anything harmful or dangerous, including socially.

Maybe the Fighter develops a general "hunch" or "sixth sense" against dangers of all sorts, e.g. is good at sensing when someone around has harmful intentions, not just because they might attack you, but also because they might be lying, cheating, betraying, deceiving, doing something illegal, or they have a plan against you. Avoidance could be generalized into an ability to "see it coming" in a variety of context.

Then of course also resilience can be seen vs a wide range of non-combat danger or discomfort: poison, pain, weather, cold/hot temperature, lack of water/food, lack of sleep, fatigue, concetrated or extended physical and mental efforts, anything requiring concentration or willpower... Anyone undergoing military training, martial arts training or sports training is going to improve at all these!

 

[Minigiant]

How about giving fighters +4 to attack rolls and damage rolls. This would free them up to have any ability score high as they are good at combat from the start.

Or you could start and +2, and have the "fighter bonus" increase with levels. This way players are not forced to make fighters of Herculian strength or Batman dexterity to ​do their job.

 

[Derren]

How about giving fighters +4 to attack rolls and damage rolls. This would free them up to have any ability score high as they are good at combat from the start.

Or you could start and +2, and have the "fighter bonus" increase with levels. This way players are not forced to make fighters of Herculian strength or Batman dexterity to ​do their job.

And what if they still decide to maximize fighting ability?

And I second the question that first one must establish what a fighter is. The class is so broad, it can cover anything from a knight to a thug, making it very hard to tie out of combat abilities to this class (or classes at all). Either you need lots of possible option the player can pick the right one for his class or tie them to background instead and then you again have the problem that the wizard has access to them, too.

 

[ExploderWizard]

A class based system and a skill system mix like oil and water. The skill system used in a class based one exists primarily to define what a fighter (or any other class) cannot do.

Before skill systems were tacked on, an adventurer of any class was a competent person in addition to their class abilities. Skills took that away. Once you provide mechanical support for something via a skill you simultaneously create mechanical incompetence for all without the skill.

I enjoy skill based systems just fine. The beauty of them is that you don't need classes. Classes and skills are forever interfering with each other. D&D should break up such a toxic relationship. It is simply another case of too much granularity forcing itself into an abstract game.

 

[Minigiant]

And what if they still decide to maximize fighting ability?

And I second the question that first one must establish what a fighter is. The class is so broad, it can cover anything from a knight to a thug, making it very hard to tie out of combat abilities to this class (or classes at all). Either you need lots of possible option the player can pick the right one for his class or tie them to background instead and then you again have the problem that the wizard has access to them, too.

If you put points into STR or DEX, you have made the choice for combat over noncombat.

The point is that you could rub a 18 CHA 12 STR fighter and function as the face.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I enjoy skill based systems just fine. The beauty of them is that you don't need classes. Classes and skills are forever interfering with each other. D&D should break up such a toxic relationship. It is simply another case of too much granularity forcing itself into an abstract game.

In which case, the skillful fighter would be either a traditional fighter, but with some specialized class abilities like NWPs, or a skill-based character who has enough combat skills to qualify as a warrior type but spreads the rest around.

 

[Quickleaf]

And I second the question that first one must establish what a fighter is. The class is so broad, it can cover anything from a knight to a thug, making it very hard to tie out of combat abilities to this class (or classes at all). Either you need lots of possible option the player can pick the right one for his class or tie them to background instead and then you again have the problem that the wizard has access to them, too.

I tend to think that many options approach is best - like 4e had utility powers - only they would be non-combat focused and more passive class features than active powers.

So I'll take a stab at how I'm envisioning this could work.

1st Level Fighter - the core package, this would include an Assess/Evaluate feature and whatever combat abilities

2nd Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class feature (non-combat)

3rd Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class power (an attack)

4th Level Fighter - bonus feat or +1 to an ability score

5th Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class power (an attack)

6th Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class feature (non-combat)

7th Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class power (an attack)

8th Level Fighter - bonus feat or +1 to an ability score

9th Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class power (an attack)

10th Level Fighter - pick a heroic tier class feature (non-combat)

 

[pemerton]

I think the easiest way to make a versatile fighter is (using 4e language) to integrate the fighter and the warlord.

How you do it mechanically - via class abilities, skills, etc - I assume is another question. (And I would see Renown/Reputation as being one way of tackling this.)

Stuff like Athletics and carrying heavy loads long distances I think is useful too, but is mostly a function or a side effect of having a high STR score. On its own I don't think it does enough to create a truly versatile fighter; and if it gets built up too heavily it starts to overlap with the ranger and/or the barbarian.