What would a magical world look like? Discussion thread

[Greenfield]

I'm taking inspiration from the title of another thread.

It's generally acknowledged that things like castles and medieval fortifications as a whole are less than useful in a world with D&D style magic in it.

Similarly, feudal style social stratification would fall by the wayside very quickly when some talented kid off the farm could develop Sorcerous abilities out of nowhere.

Consider a world where the "Will of god" can be known with certainty, and independently verified from anywhere on the continent.

Consider a justice system where the innocence or guilt of an accused criminal can be verified with 100% certainty, using the right magics.

Consider a world where trade can occur over vast distances in the blink of an eye, thanks to spells like Itemize/Shrink Item and Teleport.

Consider a world where pretty much every national border can be bypassed by anyone who can afford the Wizard's services, where an enemy can use things like Teleport Circle to drop troops directly into your capital city, or even your bedroom.

What does this world look like?

Set aside the Arthurian visions we normally model our game worlds after, and share some ideas.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Similarly, feudal style social stratification would fall by the wayside very quickly when some talented kid off the farm could develop Sorcerous abilities out of nowhere.

Consider a world where the "Will of god" can be known with certainty, and independently verified from anywhere on the continent.

Consider a justice system where the innocence or guilt of an accused criminal can be verified with 100% certainty, using the right magics.

Consider a world where trade can occur over vast distances in the blink of an eye, thanks to spells like Itemize/Shrink Item and Teleport.

Consider a world where pretty much every national border can be bypassed by anyone who can afford the Wizard's services, where an enemy can use things like Teleport Circle to drop troops directly into your capital city, or even your bedroom.

I've never played in a world like this. I'm not even sure that D&D is designed for it.

Taking things point by point:

1) A kid who randomly develops sorcerous abilities will do so at level 1. You can take him down by throwing a rock at him.
2) Divine will has never been known with certainty, by anyone in any setting, aside from the gods themselves. At best, you had spells that would let you talk to them, at which point you have no idea whether they're telling the truth or not.
3) Truth spells have a save, and you don't always know whether someone succeeded on that. Even if you know that they didn't save, an accomplished liar can still get around it.
4/5) Teleport is a high-level spell, and powerful wizards don't grow on trees. Remember, in 1E, a level 6 character was "unthinkably" powerful. If you have a powerful wizard teleporting armies around, then that is the Big Bad, and you'd expect that nobody could prepare for it.

 

[Lalato]

Isn't Eberron supposed to partially answer these questions?

 

[Ahnehnois]

Similarly, feudal style social stratification would fall by the wayside very quickly when some talented kid off the farm could develop Sorcerous abilities out of nowhere.

I don't buy that at all. Real feudal systems were often lead by inbred dilettantes. People with supernatural talent who are of low class would probably not see some improved social standing because of it. More likely the power center would recruit a coalition of spellcasters to its side, and banish or demonize those who were deemed threatening to the regime.

Consider a justice system where the innocence or guilt of an accused criminal can be verified with 100% certainty, using the right magics.

High-dollar crimes would be committed under Mind Blank or the like. And petty crimes probably wouldn't be worth the cost of casting a spell. So perhaps not such a huge impact.

Consider a world where trade can occur over vast distances in the blink of an eye, thanks to spells like Itemize/Shrink Item and Teleport.

Very cosmopolitan. Likely there would be some attempt to regulate this kind of transit.

What does this world look like?

I think it's very dangerous. D&D's sharp power curve means that most individuals will be helpless to resist the rule of a few. Titanic power struggles would be regular, and innumerable civilians would be caught in the crossfire.

 

[Greenfield]

Okay, let's think about this.

Currently, when using a polygraph ("lie detector"), the subject is asked a few questions to establish "baseline". They are told to answer "yes" to each question, and are then asked questions where yes and no answers alternate. You know, "Is your name John Smith?", "Have you ever been to Las Vegas?", "Have you ever climbed Mount Everest?", etc.

Discern Lies allows a Save. One. You can either make the Save and have your lies undectable, which will be revealed when you answer "yes" to "Does two plus two equal five?", or you can fail the Save, and be caught in the crime. Attempting to conceal the truth from the church/court is a guilty plea. And you can't cleverly evade yes or no questions, except by refusing to answer them with a yes or no. Presume that the Clerics using this spell have the Wisdom to know what they're doing.

And who cares if the thief/assassin had Mind Blank up when they committed the crime? If they keep it up when questioned, the jig is up. So we have to cast Scrying a few times until the person isn't Mind Blanked and fails a Save. If the crime is big enough money, then there's big money in finding the criminal. Also, Discern Location works on objects as well, so valuable stolen goods can be located, since they can't Mind Blank.

Regarding social strata: An established leadership, with wealth and power, could indeed maintain that power for a time. Eventually their hired cadre of casters would wonder why they're taking orders from the snob, instead of simply taking his money, lands and estates.

Question though: Could the blue bloods, as a distinct class, rise up in the first place, when the real power (magic) can come to people outside their self appointed elite? And may or may not occur within their group?

Yes, Arcane magic can be studied (Wizard), but the user's ability is capped by their casting stat, and that isn't something that honors social status. And Sorcerers are going to spring up regardless of education.

Clerical magic can also be studied, but it's granted at the whim of the gods, and they may or may not care for any given acolyte's devotion. In fact, the more dedicated they are to their social class, the less likely the gods are of seeing them as being dedicated to their faith.

And what part of "inherited titles" can survive in a world where the death of a noble can be reversed, effectively undoing the inheritance?

I suspect that the major powers of the world would end up being religiously based. Churches are the only magical brotherhoods that are automatically "organized". Clerics of a Good deity could and would be trusted, simply because if they stray from that alignment, their power goes away.

If there are any secular rulers, they'd have to be blessed by the recognized church(s). Think the darkest period of the Dark Ages, when opposing the church was simply not done.

Arcane casters, if they're permitted to exist, would be organized or at least licensed by the church, with those casters found to be "not of Good character" finding themselves with little support, and no license.

 

[KirayaTiDrekan]

Keep in mind the economy of spell components.

If we're going for "realistic" (i.e. makes sense within its own context) then the spell components that are generally ignored during actual game play become an important means of measuring the power of spellcasters. If we're talking 3.5 of Pathfinder, scrying, raising the dead, and a number of other spells have a hefty price tag. Given the number of spells that require powdered gems of various sorts, gemcutters become exceedingly more important than they were/are in the real world.

Even mundane components can add some checks and balances to the power of casters in this scenario. Are bats domesticated and raised to harvest their guano? The rose gardens suddenly take on a new purpose since they can be harvested for sleep spells.

Think, also, about how this affects the mundane economy. Since silver and gems are used in spells (not to mention silver being useful against a variety of monsters), would silver be used in coins? Probably not. Silver would end up more valuable than gold, not as a currency, but as a resource. Depending on how prevalent spellcasters are, a variety of mundane trade goods take on increased value when considered as spell components.

 

[Ahnehnois]

had Mind Blank up when they committed the crime? If they keep it up when questioned, the jig is up.

If they did it while Mind Blanked, how does anyone know to question them at all? And what if they have Modify Memory cast on them so they genuinely don't know they did it.

Magic isn't foolproof. It would make criminal justice into an arms race, much as it is today.

Regarding social strata: An established leadership, with wealth and power, could indeed maintain that power for a time. Eventually their hired cadre of casters would wonder why they're taking orders from the snob, instead of simply taking his money, lands and estates.

Cue actual history. The human race is rarely at peace.

Question though: Could the blue bloods, as a distinct class, rise up in the first place, when the real power (magic) can come to people outside their self appointed elite? And may or may not occur within their group?

Yes. The real power on this earth is physical strength and intellect, and when have our monarchy/aristocracy/nobility/etc. ever been the smartest and the strongest people?

I suspect that the major powers of the world would end up being religiously based. Churches are the only magical brotherhoods that are automatically "organized". Clerics of a Good deity could and would be trusted, simply because if they stray from that alignment, their power goes away.

If there are any secular rulers, they'd have to be blessed by the recognized church(s). Think the darkest period of the Dark Ages, when opposing the church was simply not done.

D&D's conception of magic suggests to me that we would have deities competing for followers, and strongly sectarian conflicts would be common.

Arcane casters, if they're permitted to exist, would be organized or at least licensed by the church, with those casters found to be "not of Good character" finding themselves with little support, and no license.

I would expect many churches to recruit arcane casters as worshippers or at least mercenary allies. Unlike in real life, the wizards and sorcerers know that deities are real, even if their power doesn't originate from them, so they're not going to be atheists or anything. Arcane and divine magic synergize well. Alliances make sense.

 

[Manbearcat]

Nothing but Eladrin empires, Eladrin thieves, and Eladrin pike-formation busters as far as the eye can see. Oh, and the quivering, paranoid masses gathered in their roadside hovels, owning nothing (Eladrin thieves stole it all) but constantly looking over their shoulders nonetheless (when they aren't curled up in the fetal position, of course). Their evenings are filled with restless cold sweats and fearful refrains in their nightmare-filled sleep, "BAMF!"

Oh wait. Nevermind. All of the Eladrin children have died from 30 foot falls brought on by ornery, reckless Feystepping. The Eladrin are no more. So just stock fantasy with all of the very believable and internally consistent stuff that doesn't strain credulity in any way!

 

[Hellcow]

If we're talking 3.5 of Pathfinder, scrying, raising the dead, and a number of other spells have a hefty price tag. Given the number of spells that require powdered gems of various sorts, gemcutters become exceedingly more important than they were/are in the real world.

This is a point I often bring up when discussing world-building. Raise Dead alone is a spell that will have a huge impact on society, should it exist as a reliable commercial service. In 3.5, it requires 5,000 GP worth of diamonds. Which means that the people with the diamond fields are sitting on the gateway between life and death. A nation with diamond fields is going to wield tremendous political and economic influence, and likely be the center of the resurrection industry... something that's not really explored in most settings, Eberron included. I don't believe Eberron is a good model of a world in which Raise Dead exists as a reliable service, which is why in all the sourcebooks I've worked on I've tried to provide reasons why it's unreliable for most people (ranging from most religions taking a dim view of it to the fact that it often brings unwanted things back, ranging from ghosts to maruts).

I think it's very interesting to explore the impact reliable D&D magic can have on a world. Eberron goes down this path, but not completely. Stephen Brust's Taltos books show a civilization that's more mystically advanced than Eberron, with teleportation, resurrection, and sending all around as casual services.

Of course, you get a weird economic loop. If diamonds are required for commercial resurrection, you would expect them to be in high demand, which means their price would shoot up. Does this affect the quantity of diamonds required to perform the spell? If the value of diamonds triples, does the spell now require 15,000 gp in diamonds, or do the gods cut you a break and take 5,000 gp at the current market rate?

 

[Wyckedemus]

Okay, let's think about this.

Currently, when using a polygraph ("lie detector"), the subject is asked a few questions to establish "baseline". They are told to answer "yes" to each question, and are then asked questions where yes and no answers alternate. You know, "Is your name John Smith?", "Have you ever been to Las Vegas?", "Have you ever climbed Mount Everest?", etc.

Discern Lies allows a Save. One. You can either make the Save and have your lies undectable, which will be revealed when you answer "yes" to "Does two plus two equal five?", or you can fail the Save, and be caught in the crime. Attempting to conceal the truth from the church/court is a guilty plea. And you can't cleverly evade yes or no questions, except by refusing to answer them with a yes or no. Presume that the Clerics using this spell have the Wisdom to know what they're doing.

And who cares if the thief/assassin had Mind Blank up when they committed the crime? If they keep it up when questioned, the jig is up. So we have to cast Scrying a few times until the person isn't Mind Blanked and fails a Save. If the crime is big enough money, then there's big money in finding the criminal. Also, Discern Location works on objects as well, so valuable stolen goods can be located, since they can't Mind Blank.

Regarding social strata: An established leadership, with wealth and power, could indeed maintain that power for a time. Eventually their hired cadre of casters would wonder why they're taking orders from the snob, instead of simply taking his money, lands and estates.

Question though: Could the blue bloods, as a distinct class, rise up in the first place, when the real power (magic) can come to people outside their self appointed elite? And may or may not occur within their group?

Yes, Arcane magic can be studied (Wizard), but the user's ability is capped by their casting stat, and that isn't something that honors social status. And Sorcerers are going to spring up regardless of education.

Clerical magic can also be studied, but it's granted at the whim of the gods, and they may or may not care for any given acolyte's devotion. In fact, the more dedicated they are to their social class, the less likely the gods are of seeing them as being dedicated to their faith.

And what part of "inherited titles" can survive in a world where the death of a noble can be reversed, effectively undoing the inheritance?

I suspect that the major powers of the world would end up being religiously based. Churches are the only magical brotherhoods that are automatically "organized". Clerics of a Good deity could and would be trusted, simply because if they stray from that alignment, their power goes away.

If there are any secular rulers, they'd have to be blessed by the recognized church(s). Think the darkest period of the Dark Ages, when opposing the church was simply not done.

Arcane casters, if they're permitted to exist, would be organized or at least licensed by the church, with those casters found to be "not of Good character" finding themselves with little support, and no license.

In a fantasy world based on D&D, the majority of all people are not magic-using forces to be reckoned with. I believe they would follow the leaders that are strong enough to "protect" them, and actually love those leaders that they can actually understand or relate to. That is why I think most rulers would be of the non-magical, secular sort. They would deal only with the divine and arcane groups that offer them fealty and/or respect, and services to the realm/people.

I also think there would be too many religions for any one of them to have command over the other religions competing for power, or for them to have authoritative power over the secular rulers. You'll of course see this in realms where the ruler is particularly devout to a specific religion above all others, but this won't be the case if one religion does not rise to dominant power. Most people in the realm are going to be diverse in which deities they hold dear over others, and won't need to fear what another religion might think of them. So in D&D-style pantheon, we're less likely to see a single church rise to power to dominate all.

I think the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk have the right of it in many ways. There would be a very diverse sampling of who rules where, and why.


... in my opinion.