What would it look like?

[Alcareru]

Niiiiice taaasty brrraaaaaiiinnnsss!

A few more points I thought of.

There is a lot of gold coinage used in D&D -- either there are a lot more gold deposits in the world or there is some form of "bankers notes" passed around a lot. In any case, D&D is far more mercantile than the Middle Ages. I would think banking would be a far more important and widespread profession than normally seen in the game.

On Magic: Will all magic be used positively? No. Will destructive magics be used every single day in every single town? Nope. My feeling is that the non-destructive magics would actually be far more common and that most magi would work with these, many not as Grand Adventurers, but as Small Magics for Hire. Then again, given the base spell list, the lie might be put to this, as most spells, by a long shot, are combat oriented. I have to wonder if this isn't just the "Adventurer's List" of spells, if there are not a long list of "less useful" spells that most wizards and sorcerers use on a daily basis. But even at that, consider the many social uses for Flare, Light, Ghost Sound, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Alarm, Hold Portal, Grease, Mount, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Tenser's Floating Disk, Change Self, Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Animate Rope, Enlarge, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Message, Reduce and Spider Climb (just to choose 1st and 2nd level spells) in the ordinary world. This could be insurance, small merchant, wide varieties of entertainment, shipping & recieving, messenger services, and suchlike. Almost any sizeable business would want at least 1 wizard or sorcerer on staff with the "right" combination of spells.

Good, Evil, Law & Chaos would be absolutes in such a world, not something to be guessed at (except due to repeated and powerful uses of anti-detection devices and spells). But are Evil people Evil 24/7? Probably not. Thus these terms might become much more ... mitigated, for lack of a better term. A Lawful Evil 1st level commoner is not much of a threat, to be certain.

Would there be Halfing Ghettos? Anti-Half-Orc Movements? Would You Let Your Sister Marry An Elf? Again, the social implications of this many races and half-races, especially once you start adding in all the secondary and tertiary races, becomes quite staggering.

Common. Everyone everywhere speaks one language. Wow. That, alone, is a huge implication.

More when I get my brain back

Hmm a slight digression, but the discussion on magic reminds me of a movie several years back-Cast A Deadly Spell- http://www.reel.com/movie.asp?MID=3727 I think it was an HBO production. It was basically a Philip Marlowe-ish noirish detective story set in our earth, but magic use was fairly widespread. Instead of guns, PI's and criminals used magic.

 

[Mark]

The implications do seem to be quite significant.

...

If you were the ruler of such a city, or kingdom of such cities, would you not use these resources to increase production, and thus wealth, and thus power?

I've seen such statements before and I've never agreed with the idea that, in the main, so many powerful people could be focused in such a way as to work for the common good. Adventurers or not, and with a variety of "alignments" to consider, I think most people's personal goals would detract significantly from some sort of utopian society's emergence. Those interested in such an end would likely be spending significant resources just offsetting those working against such an end. Sure, there could be pockets of a setting where something closer to ideal society might exist, but I think they'd be few and far between.

 

[Nightfall]

I kind of have to side with some that unless you have some reason for undeveloped magic, (such as constant wars and thus feeding the need to get spellcasters involved.) it probably ends up looking like Ebberon.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

You all should read Magic, Inc. by R.A. Heinlein. It's in a book called The Fantasies of Robert Heinlein, I believe, and it's about a magical/industrial world. It is my 2nd favorite Heinlein story, after Starship Troopers.

 

[Nightfall]

ugh! ST...man did they ever decimate the book via THAT movie.

Anyway Heinlein is an excellent writer but I'm trying to think of another source that deals with this. So far though Heinlein seems to be the only one.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Isn't Arthur C. Clarke another resource? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic?" I disagree, however.
Magic can do a lot that is beyond the reach of our technology (curing AIDS) and can do some things that violate basic laws of science in such a way that technology might or might not ever be able to accomplish them (teleportation across unlimited distances; bringing someone back from the dead after several years with their memories intact without even a body to work from). Personally, I think technology is never going to be able to do a True Resurrection or Greater Teleport, so magic has it beat there.

 

[Abisashi]

Divine Magic

I've seen such statements before and I've never agreed with the idea that, in the main, so many powerful people could be focused in such a way as to work for the common good. Adventurers or not, and with a variety of "alignments" to consider, I think most people's personal goals would detract significantly from some sort of utopian society's emergence.

I don't think that they have to be doing it for others... even if they are nuetral, there is still good reason to help people - profit. Clerics of a god of profit, greed, commerce, or similar would cast spells for a price (they already do, in fact, as per the equipment chapter guidelines), D&D just doesn't properly account for the results.

Clerics of good gods (or at least, gods of healing/compassion) should be healing for free/reduced price, at least to poor people. Even a cure minor wounds spell would be incredibly powerful, because it puts dying people into stable condition. Create Food/Water can, at the very least, prevent the local cleric from being a burden to his parishoners, while keeping them in awe simultaneously.

The benefits of using spells to help people is huge, and the clergy would quickly pick up on it, or die out. Would you worship the god that saved your dying brother and helped feed you during a famine, or the one that didn't do anything for you?

The 14th level cleric in our city(wiz 17 to cast 7th level spells, so +1 bonus spell), using just his first level non-domain spells (5+1 bonus) can feed 84 people a day. In times of famine, he does so, and his god gains several new worshipers.

 

[Mark]

I don't think that they have to be doing it for others... even if they are nuetral, there is still good reason to help people - profit. Clerics of a god of profit, greed, commerce, or similar would cast spells for a price (they already do, in fact, as per the equipment chapter guidelines), D&D just doesn't properly account for the results.

Clerics of good gods (or at least, gods of healing/compassion) should be healing for free/reduced price, at least to poor people. Even a cure minor wounds spell would be incredibly powerful, because it puts dying people into stable condition. Create Food/Water can, at the very least, prevent the local cleric from being a burden to his parishoners, while keeping them in awe simultaneously.

The benefits of using spells to help people is huge, and the clergy would quickly pick up on it, or die out. Would you worship the god that saved your dying brother and helped feed you during a famine, or the one that didn't do anything for you?

The 14th level cleric in our city(wiz 17 to cast 7th level spells, so +1 bonus spell), using just his first level non-domain spells (5+1 bonus) can feed 84 people a day. In times of famine, he does so, and his god gains several new worshipers.

The power of religion is not in salvation but, rather, in the promise of salvation.

Forget about neutrality. It's the good versus evil and law versus chaos stuggles that present the most potential and primary reasons for not using your daily allotments of spells to better the society. It's much like a nuclear stand off where both sides can't afford to use their power lest they be caught without that power when the other side decides to strike. There's something to be said for not using your spells except in moderate displays and areas where it directly benefits your faction the most with the least output.

Furthermore, look at the real world. We certainly have the resources and ability to feed, shelter, educate and provide heathcare for everybody on the planet, if everyone simply decided it was in their best interest, and yet...

 

[Felix]

"What would happen if magic were to be used in a commercial manner" is the question I am hearing this thread asking. I would think that magic would then permiate society because there are so many mundane things that magic can be applied to in order to make life easier.

Every household would own wands of Prestidigitation. Clothes are cleaned instantaneously. Food tastes better. House is clean. Baby stays amused. Use it to play games with guests. This item is easy to create, people can learn how to use it, and it frees up so much time for the washer/cook/cleaner/babysitter/host that it becomes absurd to think someone wouldn't buy one. There is so much money to be made by the wizards and so much value to be reaped by the buyer that if wizards ever become as clever as they are intelligent, you will start to see Elminster-brand Presto-sticks in everyone's home.

That is just one spell. Levitation or something similar to Tenser's Floating Disk would be applied to shipping things short distances. Teleportation Circle would link major cities. Yes, it might take a while for these circles to become widely available, but how long did it take for airplane travel to become affordable for the average person after the first powered aircraft flew? 100 years? Mage companies, in the quest for greater power, will look to become wealthy from their creations. They will create so that their product becomes affordable for more and more customers, increasing their revenues. The commoners will buy because it "improves their life" somehow (never have to eat wife's bad cooking again!). The companies will compete with each other for revenues so they can become more powerful.

As for divine magic, it is so cheap to heal someone (Cure Minor Wounds) that it would be given away for free if only people came to the services. Got hurt? Go to a church service. More powerful remedies, of course, would have different prices. And they would be paid. Raise Dead would be coach class, Ressurection as business class, True Res as first class, and Reincarnation instead of JetBlue.

What I suggest is that wealth and living standards would increase not because of (rather sometimes in spite of) altruism, but because of the profit motive. This is pure Adam Smith economics, and is easier to swallow if you believe that people are naturally selfish and motivated by profit.

posted by kamosa
Example. I consider explosives to be something of a fantasy magic equivalent. While I know of there existance and I know there general applications, I don't interact with them on a daily basis. I know my government has nuclear missiles, it doesn't alter my daily life, even though I'm aware of it.

I'm sorry, but I have to pick on this statement.
Internal Combustion Engines. I'm sure you don't consider this to be an "explosive" and don't want it to count, but it does utilize a fuel that explodes when lit. Everything with an engine houses an explosion and affects you greatly, I feel sure.

M.A.D. Meaning "mutually assured destruction". The nuclear weapons that don't affect your daily life created your daily life. If there was only one posessor of nukes, life today would be fantastically different than it is now.

T.N.T. Besides showing great movies, TNT cleared much of the western US for development, along with Nitro-glycerine (sp?) and dynamite. Travel from East to West coast US would be a lot different if it hadn't had holes blown in the mountains.

posted by Mark
Furthermore, look at the real world. We certainly have the resources and ability to feed, shelter, educate and provide heathcare for everybody on the planet, if everyone simply decided it was in their best interest, and yet...

How did we gain the resources and ability to feed, shelter... everybody on the planet? I think it is because the profit motive was followed. I think a change to altruism and redistributionism would only happen if it promised profit... ie, good PR. I don't think companies give to charity because they want those who benefit from charities to feel better (even though they do), but because it looks good... so their sales go up. And go up more than the cost of the charity donation.

Besides, if the profit motive has gotten us this far, why wouldn't it carry us far enough to actually make it economical to feed every person born? And who is to say that magic isn't such a low cost provider of health care that this wouldn't be the case? If it were profitable to spread healing to the masses at no charge due to the increased worshippers, then I think they would do it. I'd hate to see an Evil church figure that out though. The Evil god of Destruction spreading healing to the poor and saying that the Good god of Healing and his worshippers should be killed because he won't provide free health care... hrm...

But then, that's not the real world, eh?

 

[Klaus]

ugh! ST...man did they ever decimate the book via THAT movie.

Anyway Heinlein is an excellent writer but I'm trying to think of another source that deals with this. So far though Heinlein seems to be the only one.

Don't say that from the movie that revealed Denise Richards and revealed even MORE of Dina Meyer...