What would it take for 4E to win over the old guard? (Forked Thread: Changeover Poll)

[brehobit]

I play and like 4e, but it has some serious failings. 3e's failings were greater (and 4e is new and blingy) so 4e is where I'll stay. Problems are:

* Skills need love. Badly. Probably the best fix is to silo feats so that you can justify some skill improvements or diversity without gimping the combat aspects.
* Non-combat based stuff got the shaft. Skill challenges are poorly done, and there really isn't much else.
* Builds are too limited. Three of us sat down to build a decent laser-cleric. We all three end-up with a multi-class elven ranger. More books will fix this, but casters in 3.x always had some more flexibility. When I make a new character it always comes out the same as a character someone else in the group has already played. I didn't feel that way in previous editions. Not even OD&D. Part of the problem is that some powers suck so "real" options are limited. Most importantly, the PHB needed more at-wills.

But the bonus is the game is fast and plays skirmish well.

As an RPG I give it a 4/10. As a skirmish system I give it an 8.5/10. 3e was probably a 6/10 on both, maybe 7/10 for me.

Oh, and so far the WoTC modules are too "railroady" and greatly emphasize the skirmish aspect over the RPG aspect. 3e often had the same problem. So did 1e and 2e. But there were outstanding examples of RPG-based modules too (L1 and L2 come to mind).
Mark

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

4e has two strikes as far as I am concerned:

It is antagonistic to me as a gamer (for the sake of argument, let's just call it "Cosmology/Philosophy" changes, and agree that is a large umbrella of little complaints.)

It is also antagonistic to me as a designer (no OGL).

If 4e was the game I wanted it to be as a gamer, I wouldn't need the OGL; conversely if I had the OGL, it wouldn't matter what the philosophy of the game was, because the mechanics would be open for me to explore.

 

[Aeolius]

It is antagonistic to me as a gamer (for the sake of argument, let's just call it "Cosmology/Philosophy" changes, and agree that is a large umbrella of little complaints.)

i.e. "D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people." - James Wyatt, "Races and Classes" (pg. 34) ?

 

[darjr]

I've never considered my self one of the 'old guard'. But I've never pinned down what the definition was. If its 'played really old editions lots when they were in print' than I make it in spades. I mean I started with a copy of the first red box. (maybe even the blue, but my memory of the 6th grade D&D sessions are a little fuzzy). I'm playing the heck out of 4e but I've got a long way to catch up to how much 1e AD&D I've played. I even missed most of 2e all of 3.0 and most of 3.5 as well.

I really like 4e. It has won me over, it won me over in just the three core books.

I've used it to play games that were predominantly non-combat, and plan on using it to play completely non-combat sessions.

 

[Tetsubo]

From the sound of people nay saying 4E, about all it can do to appeal to 3E folks is change all the rules to match 3E and rename itself 3E. I think that would do the trick.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winna!

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I and my group are all in our 30's with 20+ years gaming experience each.

4e has been embraced wholeheartedly by us and most of us havent played D&D for over 6 years.

EDIT: I didnt vote as your poll does not have the "Play the game you enjoy and stop bitching about games other people enjoy" option.

This. I'm in the 25+ years of D&D group and I really like 4E. So, IMO, your poll is flawed in assuming that dislike of 4E is tied to being part of some Old Gaurd. It's just a preference, like all things in life. You love coconut? Well I HATE coconut, but I don't go to the coconut-lovers board on my favorite foodie website and start posting about how much I hate it.*

And I didn't vote because the options are flawed and even if they weren't are too weighted in their response.

*For those without a humor filter: I am fabricaing said foodie site. Any resemblance to any real foodie website is purely coincidental.

 

[Oni]

No edition of Dungeons and Dragons is going to be universally loved. People have different taste and it's a foolish effort to try to win over every last one of them. The sooner folks realize different people like different things and that's OK, the sooner we can all join hands, sing Kumbaya, and then go to our seperate corners and enjoy our favorite edition.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

i.e. "D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people." - James Wyatt, "Races and Classes" (pg. 34) ?

Provided those horrible monsters are still goblins, and not Goblin Picadores, and I am not slaying them in a place called the Shadowfell or the Feywild, that works for me.

 

[megamania]

Very little can be done to switch my mind.

3.5 is very good on it self and has enough different ways of presenting things that I doubt it will ever become old to me. And second (and most important at this time) I don't have the resources / money to deal with starting over from scratch. Due to DDM becoming 4e friendly I will be dropping much of that also.

Why do we keep bringing this subject up.

 

[Stalker0]

To me the 4e complaints fall into 2 categories, the "Wait and See" ones and the "Fundamental Flaws".

Wait and See Complaints: Certain builds I can't make, there is a lack of flavor about monsters or races, I don't have enough variety to make my characters unique compared to other people etc.

These are wait and see because they can be theoretically fixed with more books and more time. One thing about the old guard is they tend to have more money than younger gamers and so can afford to purchase more books (maybe not all at once, but over a few years).

Fundamental Flaws: These are subsystems of the game that are not going to go away. If you cannot stand healing surges for example, that is something that will likely never change no matter how many books come out.

Now 3e has its own fundamental flaws, so its a question of tradeoffs. If you fix the wait and see issues, then some people may find 4e's flaws less than 3e's and make the switch. However, I think there are a significant amount of wait and see complaints that is preventing the transition right now.