What would lloth have to do to get the drow to turn on her?

[Nightfall]

Heath,

And with Lolth, you know she'd be the one doing all the eating...

 

[Agamon]

Like I said, I detest the way Drow have been portrayed.

If you want to make the Drow lawful evil, and there are several reasons why that would be interesting, do so. But don't make them lawful evil and then pretend that they are chaotic as if there were no interesting roles for actually chaotic beings or that the distinction didn't really mean anything but color.

What are some examples of the drow being LE? It's not the "backstab your superior to get ahead" ideal to which they all aspire, that's for sure. Those that are strongest, rule; that's common among "chaotic" societies. They don't get along with any of their neighbor races unless they've managed to enslave them. And the very idea of the drider "race" is fairly chaotic. Are they the epitomy of Chaos? No, but I wouldn't call them Lawful by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[JustKim]

"That'd be in the thorax, Bob."

Uh, no!

In an arachnid the head and thorax are fused into a single segment called the cephalothorax, which independently evolved to perform the funcions of the thorax in other animals! That's like saying you hit a beetle in the chelicerae!

Everybody knows that, geez!

 

[Nifft]

That's like saying you hit a beetle in the chelicerae!

As a gentleman, I would do no such thing.

Thanks, -- N

PS: My original line was "... spinneret, Bob!" but I decided that was offensive to spinners.

 

[Gez]

You mean hear AC, of course. Her THAC0 would only be important if she were trying to hit you.

No, no, THIAC0, not THAC0. To Hit It AC 0.

(PS: Spiders don't have a distinct thorax, they have a cephalothorax.)

 

[Nifft]

No, no, THIAC0, not THAC0. To Hit It AC 0.

Yeah, I got it, but it's still backwards... perhaps you should ask about PC's THIAC0 instead? "What kind of a THIAC0 would I need to nail Lolth?"

(PS: Spiders don't have a distinct thorax, they have a cephalothorax.)

Apparently, I'm the only one who didn't know that. Oh the shame.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Turanil]

How can an evil people take a small step towards neutrality?

My opinion is that those who are evil, always are neurotic, psychotic, more or less insane, etc. In my campaigns, nobody completely sane is evil; evil alignment is a result from having been abused as a child, having witnessed only violence, etc., plus also being corrupted by the lure of power at all costs. Hence, I see the drow being evil because of the abuses of Llolth over them. So, it were my campaign, a new deity of Mercy, Forgiveness, and Healing would have appeared (or a bunch of her most efficient priests), and would "heal" the drow from their psychosis, turning them from evil to neutral. Then, the drow, realizing they were abused by Llolth, would turn from her and choose that new deity of mercy instead.

(Note that if I would do this in my campaign, I would also have the drow loose their dark coloration, and also their special powers, reverting back to normal elves.)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

In the Forgotten Realms, Lolth recently fell silent for several months - her priestesses couldn't reach her, couldn't get spells, and all that. Even then, she managed to retain her status as prime deity - though several drow deities made attempts to overthrow her (Vhaeraun actually intended to go and slay his mother, but he was stopped - and in the wrong place, anyway).

There are already drow who don't follow her - in the Realms, the drow even have a whole pantheon, although of course her clerics keep the knowledge of these deities from the general population (the first step of keeping someone from joining a church is to convince him that the church doesn't exist).

But to turn all the drow away from Lolth would take either something big or a lot of time.

I could see another deity killing Lolth and taking her place as main deity of the drow. This could be a deity from somewhere else entirely (let's say, Erythnul, or the Realms' Cyric, got it into their heads to gain the drow as another force of death and destruction), one with more power than Lolth so they could defeat her in a more or less fair one-on-one (Cyric already killed a deity, and he's so chaotic that not even Lolth could predict his actions).

If you think of one of the Dark Seldarine, it would be somewhat more problematic, since they are all weaker than Lolth. I'd say Vhaeraun would have the best chances, since he already has a sizable following, what with all those males who got fed up with being lorded over by the priestesses, or those who wanted to make their fortune in the Night Above - without turning into some goodie nudist dancer like those Eilistraeeans.

He would probably have to increase his power and then get an edge to boot - maybe a big huge artifact, or turning his most resourceful follower into a proxy to outflank Lolth. Or something.

My opinion is that those who are evil, always are neurotic, psychotic, more or less insane, etc.

Nah. In fact, it's something decidedly human to think about yourself first. You're taught sharing and all that, but the prime survival instinct is still there. And if then someone isn't taught helping others so they help you and what not, and may even be taught that his first instinct (thinking of himself first) was actually right, he might become a selfish bastard.

I don't call that insane.

 

[Turanil]

Nah. In fact, it's something decidedly human to think about yourself first. You're taught sharing and all that, but the prime survival instinct is still there. And if then someone isn't taught helping others so they help you and what not, and may even be taught that his first instinct (thinking of himself first) was actually right, he might become a selfish bastard.

I don't call that insane.

Okay, it's your opinion. My opinion is what you describe as being inherent to humans ("think about yourself first") is Neutral, not Evil. In my games, evil is to inflict harm for no reason but pleasure, enslave people for a personnal gain, etc. For me this is almost always caused by psychosis, or being raised in an already violent society. I base this on psychology, in which I have an interest. Now, note that primates are social animals, meaning used to cooperate instinctively rather than fight among themselves. But well, all of this is more opinion than science, and in a fantasy setting one can do what he wants.

 

[pawsplay]

I've always detested the way in which the Drow are portrayed because they are always protrayed in a way that I strongly associate with lawful evil rather than chaotic evil. They have never once acted in a way suggestive of chaotic evil.

I disagree. They've seemingly constructed a byzantine society of complex rules and competing power groups specifically so they could disobey them. You have to admire their industry.

Incidentally, drow tend toward NE. Treachery is their speciality, not chaos. Their principal deity happens to be CE, and much of their aristocracy is, naturally enough, tinged with law. If you want to look for a model of a society predominantly CE, you'll have to look elsewhere. They are not a chaotic evil race and have never, in 3e at least, been characterized as such.