What would this society look like?

Dannyalcatraz

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Yes, they could have lower metabolic rates... but they're still having to feed them ready sources of meat. Though there were large herds of buffalo in the Plains, those tribes which hunted them for meat usually followed the herds during the period. . . and didn't have to supply meat to themselves and large hungry dinosaurs.

Well, assuming either extant megafauna or the huge buffalo herds, the riding raptors (or their Moa descendants) could still pay off (assuming you could train them for riding, of course). Smart, fast and equipped with fearsome natural weapons of their own, they'd naturally take down that kind of prey in small packs of 5-10 creatures. Now add in the human element of sophisticated tactics, ranged weapons (bow, axe and spear) and riding techniques analogous to what we see in horsemen and the hunting party becomes (potentially) more efficient than a RW one. Get in close, use your raptors to cut a target from the herd, use ranged weapons to wound it, and then take it down- either with your own weapons or letting the raptors take it down themselves. Getting that meat supply wouldn't be that big an issue.

Something as big as a true Moa or midsize raptor would be the equivalent of a tank, and a tribe might only be able to handle a small number- 2-5 beasts total. But they would probably develop tank/armored knight style tactics to go along with such critters if they had them- a couple of riders with ample ammo supported by "infantry."

As for the smaller raptors or carnivorous flightless birds, using packs of them to hunt with would be no more a problem than using hunting dogs. That's just a matter of flavor.

Remember that while reptiles of all kinds prefer live prey, most don't turn their noses up at carrion. Some scientists propose that some of the raptors and carnivores may have even preferred it- its an easy meal, after all, that entails no risk of injury...and reptiles have fairly robust digestive systems.

The moa idea isn't that bad either; they fill a similar ecological niche to horses, they supply useful materials (decorative or fletching feathers, molting down which could be preserved for clothing, good source of protein) and with their herbivorous nature and birth cycles they can be used as herd, pack, and riding animals. The smaller varieties (heavy-foot) were compact enough to be highly useful for a herding animal, and perhaps such creatures lay in large communal nests and pad them with materials (like eiderdown.) This could provide for a reason for travel (the collection of young and their nests) and provide for an interesting cityscape. Moa excrement may be similar to guano, and the human tribes may have a pretty heavy connection to fire due to the prevalence of this Fireball 'ingredient'.

Nice!
 
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Dannyalcatraz

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Loonook's excellent expansion on my Moa idea reminded me of something.

I read about a really cool take on a nomadic society in a short story in Fantasy & Sci-Fi magazine some years ago. The society was focused on beekeeping, and they maintained a variety of hives, each in large, specialized wagons. They traveled the lands in order for the hives to have access to a wide variety of flowering plants, which in turn affected the quality and flavors of the honey they produced...and, of course, to help pollinate crops. Beyond their pollination biz, they sold some of their exotic honeys at fairly decent prices.

Part of the tribal leadership's role was, of course, knowing where to go and when. If you miss the blooms, you miss the pollens, and if you miss the pollens, you don't get any honey or business from the farmers. Get the right mix and your honeys are as complex and subtle as wines, and will sell at exorbitant prices. Get it wrong and your honey may be merely pedestrian. Get it wrong often enough and it may ruin demand for your product in the future, and may even force you to abandon certain routes as unprofitable.
 

Loonook

First Post
Well, assuming either extant megafauna or the huge buffalo herds, the riding raptors (or their Moa descendants) could still pay off (assuming you could train them for riding, of course). Smart, fast and equipped with fearsome natural weapons of their own, they'd naturally take down that kind of prey in small packs of 5-10 creatures. Now add in the human element of sophisticated tactics, ranged weapons (bow, axe and spear) and riding techniques analogous to what we see in horsemen and the hunting party becomes (potentially) more efficient than a RW one. Get in close, use your raptors to cut a target from the herd, use ranged weapons to wound it, and then take it down- either with your own weapons or letting the raptors take it down themselves. Getting that meat supply wouldn't be that big an issue.

Something as big as a true Moa or midsize raptor would be the equivalent of a tank, and a tribe might only be able to handle a small number- 2-5 beasts total. But they would probably develop tank/armored knight style tactics to go along with such critters if they had them- a couple of riders with ample ammo supported by "infantry."

As for the smaller raptors or carnivorous flightless birds, using packs of them to hunt with would be no more a problem than using hunting dogs. That's just a matter of flavor.

Remember that while reptiles of all kinds prefer live prey, most don't turn their noses up at carrion. Some scientists propose that some of the raptors and carnivores may have even preferred it- its an easy meal, after all, that entails no risk of injury...and reptiles have fairly robust digestive systems.

True, they don't... but dogs aren't enormous cold-blooded killers who could gain the knowledge to open doors ;). Really, I just would fear the heat-loss/over-heating of a heavy pack dinosaur loaded with hundreds of pounds of cargo and little internal method to get that sweet spot of homeostasis.



Friends don't let friends write setting material without backup ;).

I'm still stuck on the fire-based warrior style. Fire-based cultures for humanity make for some bad mamajama warriors and mystics also. That sweet guano economy could breed Hellenic-style tribal sharings (i.e. we trade you fledgling warmages for large sources of guano and your skilled trappings).

Ugh, sweet guano.

Loonook's excellent expansion on my Moa idea reminded me of something.

Again with the love... Danny, you need to slow down or people will start talking ;).

I read about a really cool take on a nomadic society in a short story in Fantasy & Sci-Fi magazine some years ago. The society was focused on beekeeping, and they maintained a variety of hives, each in large, specialized wagons. They traveled the lands in order for the hives to have access to a wide variety of flowering plants, which in turn affected the quality and flavors of the honey they produced...and, of course, to help pollinate crops. Beyond their pollination biz, they sold some of their exotic honeys at fairly decent prices.

Part of the tribal leadership's role was, of course, knowing where to go and when. If you miss the blooms, you miss the pollens, and if you miss the pollens, you don't get any honey or business from the farmers. Get the right mix and your honeys are as complex and subtle as wines, and will sell at exorbitant prices. Get it wrong and your honey may be merely pedestrian. Get it wrong often enough and it may ruin demand for your product in the future, and may even force you to abandon certain routes as unprofitable.

Agreed on that story. Plenty of possible trade items from a seminomadic/nomadic society trading with demihumans. The tribes, with their nice supply of rich guano (really, I worry we're creating the Poo People of this world), various exotic meats, rare materials, wild herbs, honey, skilled trade goods, and breeding stock of their animals would be useful.

Irish Travelers are well renowned for their dog breeding, and with the right rituals and a long history of breeding... you could produce some pretty powerful beasts. Magebred animals a la Eberron which could easily be raised by a nomadic culture could include dogs, raptors (of the scaly and feathered variety), pack animals, and various creatures which can fit in small areas and benefit from movement across the land. Silks which are weaved from the spiderfolk in the Insertnamehere Mountains (or worms kept in a large safe wagon), fine honey as listed by DA (a GREAT supplemental income to lands which can't support witchfolk to help them with plant growth and special farming magic/pollination), trained animals of all sorts, and amber and exotic woods from farflung regions. Skilled trades would of course bring their fletchings, various handicrafts created from their travels, and talents which are easy to hone on the roads.

Depending on if the humans think in long or short times... you could easily have humans who are fine winemakers... who hide their maturing deliciousness in secret caves before they are casked and brought to market. Humans may also have a great knowledge of lore which is wanted by various wisemen from all of the nations... and that could prove useful to rogues. A culture moving between a dozen lands can collect the good and the bad.

Black Lotus extract is powerful... but pretty mundane when you travel the wide world.



---

I think that the Manni from the Dark Tower series by Stephen King could also be an interesting subsect of human culture... imagine planes drifting nomads who are similar to the Amish. Could prove interesting for a 'lost tribe' dynamic.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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Agreed on that story. Plenty of possible trade items from a seminomadic/nomadic society trading with demihumans. The tribes, with their nice supply of rich guano (really, I worry we're creating the Poo People of this world), various exotic meats, rare materials, wild herbs, honey, skilled trade goods, and breeding stock of their animals would be useful.

With trained Otyughs?

Actually, guano supplies some of the necessary ingredients for gunpowder- these guys might REALLY be a force to be reckoned with. Imagine, plains dwelling Moa riding warriors sweeping out of the wilderness with guns and rockets. Heck, I could even see them using the Moas for towing chariots loaded down with rockets...

Hello F/S-F Mongol horde!
 
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Loonook

First Post
With trained Otyughs?

Actually, guano supplies some of the necessary ingredients for gunpowder- these guys might REALLY be a force to be reckoned with. Imagine, plains dwelling Moa riding warriors sweeping out of the wilderness with guns and rockets. Heck, I could even see them using the Moas for towing chariots loaded down with rockets...

Hello F/S-F Mongol horde!

They could have guns and rockets... but there are more interesting things to do with it. Greek and Fenian fire, creepy glowing effects in their cities... plenty of fun to be had with the compounds available ;).

Slainte,

-Loonook.

PS: If this guy doesn't take it, I think we have a project to work on DA... up for it?
 

Dannyalcatraz

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If this guy doesn't take it, I think we have a project to work on DA... up for it?
I post crazy, wacky out-of-the-box stuff here all the time- much based on my non-fiction reading and viewing. My favorite thing to do on ENWorld is help others make memorable PCs and campaigns- check my sig!

I was just thinking that the Moa-drawn charioteers could launch rockets with Greek/Fenian fire warheads, as opposed to black powder ones...

Actually, they could even use the ammonia in the guano (see wiki link below) as the rocket fuel (though I don't know if you need purified ammonia or some altered form of it for this use).

Their textiles would be incredible: ammonia is used to alter the colors of certain dyes- they'd have a broader palette available to them.

The tribe could be called the Pheonix People by outsiders...

Ammonia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

rogueboy

First Post
Thank you both for the great ideas! Sorry I haven't replied for a while, I was out of town and unable to access the site. I'll put together something in the next couple days that includes my favorite ideas (and any spin-off ideas I may come up with) for more critiquing/input. If you guys (or anyone, for that matter) have other ideas about this, please post them (I've got a couple other societies [non-nomadic] that I'm going to have to work out, perhaps I'll post my starting point for those when I do a summary of this one).

I definitely like the idea of fire-based warriors, and the honey idea is a great reason for migration. The issue of homeostasis for reptilian pack animals made me think of perhaps having them pull wagons/carts (which could double as housing, perhaps?) instead of packing the stuff directly on the animals (which would interfere with homeostasis of the pack animals). While the gunpowder idea is interesting, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with their being guns/rockets in my campaign world (perhaps its discovered during the campaign? Or perhaps its only known to a lost tribe? I'll have to consider those options...). And I will definitely have to consider the magebred animals option, I definitely liked the flavor of that from Eberron.

I've gotta run out the door here in a minute, but I'll definitely have to take a closer look at the ideas and use them, thanks again!
 

Dannyalcatraz

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As for the honey-farmers, realize that you could reskin them into a society that produces a high quality product of anything that requires a variety of ingredients from a large geographical area.

Perhaps they gather exotic grains to make fine beers and ales; perhaps they find exotic dyes for textiles; perhaps they make perfumes.

Perhaps they are the people who are specialized in tracking down the special ingredients the world runs on...spell components!
 

Loonook

First Post
Thank you both for the great ideas! Sorry I haven't replied for a while, I was out of town and unable to access the site. I'll put together something in the next couple days that includes my favorite ideas (and any spin-off ideas I may come up with) for more critiquing/input. If you guys (or anyone, for that matter) have other ideas about this, please post them (I've got a couple other societies [non-nomadic] that I'm going to have to work out, perhaps I'll post my starting point for those when I do a summary of this one).

Post them now... and we'll assist most likely.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

rogueboy

First Post
Finally got done with a variety of projects and other classwork that's been keeping me really busy for the last week or so, so as Loonook requested, here's the other society ideas I've got. Before I get into them, I'll give a brief overview of the worlds.

Races: I've decided to go with a slightly modified (from both 3.x and 4e) list of races. My 7 races (7's a big theme in my campaign world) along with anything altered from D&D as written (for normal PC races) are Humans, Elves (focused on the nature, not on arcana/magic), Gnomes (secret-keepers and arcanists), Halflings (traders of the world), Dwarves, Lizardfolk (a blending of 4e Dragonborn, 3.x Goliaths, and ancient Aztecs [taken from a thread on another forum]), and "Shadar Kai" (I use quotes because I'm not taking more than a conceptual aspect of them). Additionally, each race has 1 stat associated with them (listed as "[stat]" with each race).

Humans [any]: discussed above.
Elves [wis]: currently planning to use the nature aspects of 3.x and 4e elves (discarding the magic aspect of them in 3.x and the Eladrin/Drow dichotomy [trichotomy?] in 4e)
Dwarves [con]: I like the stone focus of 'standard' (3.x or 4e) Dwarves, with the exception that they are not entirely isolated underground - their cities should be at the surface and below (perhaps having a 'ground floor' in the same way that we do, and building down instead of up?)
Halflings [dex]: Taking inspiration from an older version of the Project Pheonix Halflings and Gnomes (land and sea traders, respectively), I have decided to make Halflings a land-based trading society (my campaign world is largely a single continent), travelers in caravans of 50-100 (the world's a dangerous place) halflings. They have neutral-good relations with almost everyone, since they are the primary source of trade goods for most cities. Halflings are inquisitive, jovial, and enjoy songs and stories.
Gnomes [int]: Taking inspiration from Rich Burlew's gnomes (Giant In the Playground Games), I am giving gnomes the arcane/magic focus that I removed from elves and am adding a "keeper of secrets" vibe to them that I've been pretty happy with so far.
Lizardfolk [str]: Altered from the 3.x/4e MM versions to fit a strong PC race, I found a thread ([d20r, Race] Lizardfolk - Giant in the Playground Forums) that discusses some ideas for a lizardfolk race - I was particularly struck by Lappy9000's ideas in post 16 for a tribal, sun-based society (reminds me of Aztec society, but that may be me being ignorant).
"Shadar Kai" [cha]: I only decided on using Shadar Kai (4e) as an inspiration, but since I want a charisma-based race, I can't use them as written (Int/Dex) - instead, I am planning to use their picture in the 4e MM (which for some reason looks "charismatic" to me, I'm not sure why) and their deep connection to the (neutral) god of death. I haven't put much thought into how this society will work, but I definitely like the connection to a non-evil god of death - my friend's first question when reading about Shadar Kai was whether they were fatalistic. I don't believe Shadar Kai are, as written, but perhaps it would be an interesting twist to have my race be fatalistic?

For all races, I am hoping to avoid an innate societal tendency (or image) as being evil, which is a major reason that I moved away from Tieflings as a player race.

If people have ideas for these races, either using these concepts or something else (I'm really only attached to the first 5 races and the general concept for those), or using an alternate race for either the strong or charismatic races.

Hopefully this makes sense - if there's questions about any of this, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer. There is a possibility that I haven't come up with the answer, in which case I'll state that along with my initial idea for it.

Thanks again for the help with these societies.
 

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