IanB
First Post
I'd like this... as long as I don't have to buy the beginner box and can just go straight to the regular books.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
What would you rather see: core rulebook or traditional trilogy?
- Thread starter Jack Daniel
- Start date
I'd like this... as long as I don't have to buy the beginner box and can just go straight to the regular books.
Tallifer
Hero
There simply has to be three:
1. Rules and all the rules, classes, races, skills, feats, powers, spell lists in the Players' Handbook.
2. Treasure, advice, random tables and world building, samples for running different situations: all in the Dungeon Master's Guide, none of which players need to read.
3. Monsters in a separate book. No way I want 280 pages added to my Players' Handbook with monsters. Also, I keep reading the whines of people who want more fluff for their monsters, so make that 400 pages.
D&D is too vast now. Especially in this last ditch effort to unite the world. If you only want a simple purchase, just buy the Starter Box.
1. Rules and all the rules, classes, races, skills, feats, powers, spell lists in the Players' Handbook.
2. Treasure, advice, random tables and world building, samples for running different situations: all in the Dungeon Master's Guide, none of which players need to read.
3. Monsters in a separate book. No way I want 280 pages added to my Players' Handbook with monsters. Also, I keep reading the whines of people who want more fluff for their monsters, so make that 400 pages.
D&D is too vast now. Especially in this last ditch effort to unite the world. If you only want a simple purchase, just buy the Starter Box.
Tallifer
Hero
I figure that the Starter Box will be everything necessary for Old School. People who want the Pathfinder or Fourth Edition feel would buy the Advanced Books. There would be a few people who actually want both and would buy both. Plus most of us hardcore gamers are also hardcore collectors.
Consonant Dude
First Post
The traditional trilogy came to be because the rules were more detailed and the line between player and DM was deemed nothing less than sacred. The DMG's biggest section was about treasures. It clocked around 50 pages and had Gygax been able to, he would most probably have included all the monsters in the DMG but it was already twice as large as the PHB. And so, that is why we came to have three core books.
DMG 1st edition preface: As this book is the exclusive precinct of the DM, you must view any non-DM player possessing it as something less than worthy of honorable death. Peeping players there will undoubtebly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game which has rules hidden from participants.
Once you decode the hilarious prose from Gygax, you can see the intentions were good even if it's kind of misguided. Had people listened to Gygax and insisted on "DM secrets" being the proving of a select few, the game might not have grown so much. But there is merit in the intent even if Gygax's execution is flawed.
The rules and elements contained in the books are a language. Contrary to what Gygax thinks, everybody should learn it. It's once you apply this language and form sentence with it (creating an adventure, or a campaign world) that you have "secrets" to make your players marvel.
Anyways, here's what I would do:
Core book I: DnD Game
Where you learn all the basic rules of the game, how to create characters, how to create groups, how to play, how to DM. Task resolution, abilities, classes, themes, whatever. Adventure creation tips. Dungeon and town generations. How to customize the game and other core books. Put main spells for a 1st level character but that's it. All kinds of equipment.
Core book II: Tome of magic
Put a crapload of arcane spells and magic items. Also put guideline on customizing spell lists items for specific campaigns AND a system to create new spells and items.
Core book III: insert fancy gygaxian name that means "Divine stuff"
Put divine spells in there but also make this a sort of mini-deities and demigods book, with customizable religious templates. Maybe look at Book of the Righteous and go from there.
Core Book IV: Monsters and denizens
By all means have all kinds of monster staples but don't stop there. Put a crapload of stat blocks for typical guards, nobles. thugs and other NPCs. And then have interesting system and guidelines to create your own creatures.
DMG 1st edition preface: As this book is the exclusive precinct of the DM, you must view any non-DM player possessing it as something less than worthy of honorable death. Peeping players there will undoubtebly be, but they are simply lessening their own enjoyment of the game by taking away some of the sense of wonder that otherwise arises from a game which has rules hidden from participants.
Once you decode the hilarious prose from Gygax, you can see the intentions were good even if it's kind of misguided. Had people listened to Gygax and insisted on "DM secrets" being the proving of a select few, the game might not have grown so much. But there is merit in the intent even if Gygax's execution is flawed.
The rules and elements contained in the books are a language. Contrary to what Gygax thinks, everybody should learn it. It's once you apply this language and form sentence with it (creating an adventure, or a campaign world) that you have "secrets" to make your players marvel.
Anyways, here's what I would do:
Core book I: DnD Game
Where you learn all the basic rules of the game, how to create characters, how to create groups, how to play, how to DM. Task resolution, abilities, classes, themes, whatever. Adventure creation tips. Dungeon and town generations. How to customize the game and other core books. Put main spells for a 1st level character but that's it. All kinds of equipment.
Core book II: Tome of magic
Put a crapload of arcane spells and magic items. Also put guideline on customizing spell lists items for specific campaigns AND a system to create new spells and items.
Core book III: insert fancy gygaxian name that means "Divine stuff"
Put divine spells in there but also make this a sort of mini-deities and demigods book, with customizable religious templates. Maybe look at Book of the Righteous and go from there.
Core Book IV: Monsters and denizens
By all means have all kinds of monster staples but don't stop there. Put a crapload of stat blocks for typical guards, nobles. thugs and other NPCs. And then have interesting system and guidelines to create your own creatures.
JohnSnow
Hero
Using the Mentzer Red Box as a template, it wouldn't be that hard to fit a stripped down Core game, similar to OD&D with just the basic 4 classes (Fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue), and races (human, elf, dwarf, halfling). The Mentzer set only went to Level 3, but going to Level 5 wouldn't add a huge amount of complexity. Each class write-up was a couple pages and there were simplified rules for everything. The race write-ups could be done in about a page each, and would end up taking up no more room than the three racial classes originally did.
The Dragon Age starter set has a similar layout, with higher production quality and slightly more pages (two 64 page pamphlets, as opposed to one 64 page and one 48-page) of content. Therfore, I believe it's not at all unreasonable to believe you could produce such a set (with dice) at a profit for $30-40. Done right, it would be a truly winning product. But WotC has to stop thinking of it as an "entry product" and instead view it as a simplified, but complete, beginner version of the game.
Obviously, an experienced player who wanted a more complex game could skip it and just buy the hardcovers, but if the Core is good, a lot of us would buy it just because. And it would be a great Chrstmas gift for the little would-be gamers in your life.
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Blacky the Blackball
First Post
One big book for the DM that includes everything - effectively a Rules Cyclopedia style book, containing PHB, DMG and MM material.
plus
One smaller book for the player that only includes the stuff they need. It's not a cut down version in terms of content (playable levels, classes, spells, etc.) It just skips things like the monsters, detailed combat rules, treasure, general DM rules, and so forth. It just has PHB material.
Both books have basically the same layout, with the exception of things that the player's book doesn't have of course.
Many people will want to buy the DMs book, and for those who do it's the only book they need. They never need to try to remember which book contains something because the one book contains everything.
People who only play and have no interest in DMing could buy that book; but they'll probably want to buy the smaller (and cheaper) players book. It gives them everything they need to play a character.
plus
One smaller book for the player that only includes the stuff they need. It's not a cut down version in terms of content (playable levels, classes, spells, etc.) It just skips things like the monsters, detailed combat rules, treasure, general DM rules, and so forth. It just has PHB material.
Both books have basically the same layout, with the exception of things that the player's book doesn't have of course.
Many people will want to buy the DMs book, and for those who do it's the only book they need. They never need to try to remember which book contains something because the one book contains everything.
People who only play and have no interest in DMing could buy that book; but they'll probably want to buy the smaller (and cheaper) players book. It gives them everything they need to play a character.
Iosue
Legend
Originally I was thinking BECMI Boxes, but it occurred to me how much I enjoy how Essentials is done, and think that would be a good way to go. Very much in line with JohnSnow's suggestion:
A Basic Set with core rules, 4 classes, 4 races, two thin booklets. Basically, the Mentzer Red Box, but done better than the Essentials Starter Set. In particular, having proper cardstock covers for the books. Personally, I think the Basic Set should only go up to Level 3, to avoid too much duplication when a group moves on to the mainset. Include maps, a dry erase map, and some pogs.
Players Books: Paperbacks. One with the four Corest of the Core classes and Corest of Core races. Another with Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-orcs, Tieflings, and Dragonborn, Paladins, Rangers, Warlocks and Warlords. Contents much like the Heroes of X books.
Rules Compendium: Paperback. All other rules for running the game. First half player rules (skills, combat, etc.), the second half rules only the DM needs to know. This would include advancement tables for all classes in the two players books.
DM's Kit: DM screen, adventure, and a book that only deals with advice on creating adventures and campaigns in different styles. Ideally, this book would only need to be bought by new DMs wanting structure and guidance. Veteran DMs could pass on it.
Monster Manual: Full of monsters (with "pog" illustrations for each monster a la the Monster Vault), plus rules for creating new monsters.
And that's it. Onto this you could easily tack on a Tactical Combat module with pogs for all the Monster Manual monsters, and a Character Option book with skills, skill systems, and alternate magic systems.
A Basic Set with core rules, 4 classes, 4 races, two thin booklets. Basically, the Mentzer Red Box, but done better than the Essentials Starter Set. In particular, having proper cardstock covers for the books. Personally, I think the Basic Set should only go up to Level 3, to avoid too much duplication when a group moves on to the mainset. Include maps, a dry erase map, and some pogs.
Players Books: Paperbacks. One with the four Corest of the Core classes and Corest of Core races. Another with Gnomes, Half-elves, Half-orcs, Tieflings, and Dragonborn, Paladins, Rangers, Warlocks and Warlords. Contents much like the Heroes of X books.
Rules Compendium: Paperback. All other rules for running the game. First half player rules (skills, combat, etc.), the second half rules only the DM needs to know. This would include advancement tables for all classes in the two players books.
DM's Kit: DM screen, adventure, and a book that only deals with advice on creating adventures and campaigns in different styles. Ideally, this book would only need to be bought by new DMs wanting structure and guidance. Veteran DMs could pass on it.
Monster Manual: Full of monsters (with "pog" illustrations for each monster a la the Monster Vault), plus rules for creating new monsters.
And that's it. Onto this you could easily tack on a Tactical Combat module with pogs for all the Monster Manual monsters, and a Character Option book with skills, skill systems, and alternate magic systems.
When you think of the rules, you should not just think of the rules available on the 'first' day but think of rules that will be produced to supplement those rules.
How many purchases of $5 to $10 would you make for say an additional 20 to 30 pages of rules?
If I was selling the product line then I would aim for an initial launch with some of the material created over the next year ans hold some of the material back for a series of monthly releases in smaller soft cover productions.
I'd make them likely 60% in depth additional material for a class, 20% additional material for a GM (advice, tables, possibly NPC with hooks), and 20% would go to a simple location that could be plugged into a campaign. Aim would be around $5.00 for those 20 to 30 pages of material in a sort of comic book production format.
You will get sales from players wanting to get the extras for the 60% player focus (class, race, background, kit) and the GM will still have some generic material tacked in. Each person gets something out of the purchase which motivates sales. The GM material will also encourage the 'player owner' to look at maybe running something.
How many purchases of $5 to $10 would you make for say an additional 20 to 30 pages of rules?
If I was selling the product line then I would aim for an initial launch with some of the material created over the next year ans hold some of the material back for a series of monthly releases in smaller soft cover productions.
I'd make them likely 60% in depth additional material for a class, 20% additional material for a GM (advice, tables, possibly NPC with hooks), and 20% would go to a simple location that could be plugged into a campaign. Aim would be around $5.00 for those 20 to 30 pages of material in a sort of comic book production format.
You will get sales from players wanting to get the extras for the 60% player focus (class, race, background, kit) and the GM will still have some generic material tacked in. Each person gets something out of the purchase which motivates sales. The GM material will also encourage the 'player owner' to look at maybe running something.
Ratskinner
Adventurer
Are you kidding? I'd buy almost anything for $10. Most of the magazines I read cost almost that much. I'd even buy rules modules I had no intention of ever using..."just in case." I can't even guess how many ~$10 Indie pdfs and games I have (and have no hope of ever running.) $20 makes me think a bit harder. I'm trying to remember how much the 2e splatbooks cost, anyone out there got an old one with the price still on?
I think given the nature of WotC and their publishing strategy, that they would at least need to keep the MM separate. They are going to publish additional supplements to it, this is a given fact. But as for the other two books I'm unsure. There's no real need to have all 3 separate and certainly one book for the players with everything they need (finding magic items for higher level PCs to begin with in 3E is a nuisance for example) and one for the GM could definitely work. Other companies have gone with that strategy and it works.
I personally prefer one book for the players and one for the GM though. It means the players and the GM have separate references. I love NWoD as a system but passing the core rules around all the time when we started off was a little annoying.
Edit; a quick note: I don't mean that the MM has to be separate to the GM material, just that it will probably be and need to be separate to player material.
I personally prefer one book for the players and one for the GM though. It means the players and the GM have separate references. I love NWoD as a system but passing the core rules around all the time when we started off was a little annoying.
Edit; a quick note: I don't mean that the MM has to be separate to the GM material, just that it will probably be and need to be separate to player material.
